It was you who claimed that teachings of BG are radically different from the H1ndu l@w of k@rma when you classified the later as vastly inferior.
You falsely claim that I disputed karma having a bearing in our future life ? How can that be when my whole logical argument was dwelling on the law of karma based on rebirth which I found out to be logically incompatible.
Re: DEAR INDIAN
by Indian on Jan 13, 2015 01:15 PM
I am trying to close this issue by replying to most important issues only. This place is not conducive for a detailed discussion and therefore your confusion is quite valid. I can only assure you that there are very logical explanations for everything within Laws of Karma.
Re: Re: DEAR INDIAN
by Vascado on Jan 13, 2015 03:20 PM
I find premature to close this issue because many issues remain unaddressed particularly with regard to the subject. Your claim that there is logical explanation for everything in the law of karma is valid only when you evidence it. You cannot just shrug aside this issue by claiming that it is possible only for the spiritually advanced to comprehend the theory. That literally proves nothing. It is just like only claiming a Super Natural exists and if one ask for evidence, you are replied, it is difficult to comprehend or judge his/her ways.
Re: DEAR INDIAN
by Indian on Jan 13, 2015 01:27 PM
You are not reading what I write, it seems. There is no point arguing with you. What do you mean by H!ndu Law of karma which is against BG's teachings ? Where did I say this ? I never speak false and I didn't claim anything you blame me for. If you are here to earn brownies, I am not game. Please forgive me. Your this post has disappointed me.
Re: Re: DEAR INDIAN
by Indian on Jan 13, 2015 01:29 PM
Where did I say what thing is inferior to what ? Please read the posts well. How can a discussion is possible with you. Sorry, I should not have intervened.
Re: Re: Re: DEAR INDIAN
by Vascado on Jan 13, 2015 03:12 PM
So you never claimed Vedanta and Upanishad as superior in our discussion ? Sorry to say this, but when I gave you a wikipedia link, you exactly said this. Please scroll back and you will find what I exactly mean.
Re: Re: DEAR INDIAN
by Vascado on Jan 13, 2015 03:16 PM
I am reading it well. If you do not want to debate with me, it is your wish. But from my end, I want this discussion to continue. I never blamed you for anything nor I like to score brownie points. But there is a confusion as to what exactly is your stand regarding the H1ndu law of karma and Bh@gvad G1ta ? My confusion arised because at one point during our discussion, you claimed one as superior and another as inferior and this is on record which you can please scroll back if you want as reference.
Re: Thanks Vascado !
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:22 PM
Thanks to you too Indian. But you left abruptly without leaving many issues unaddressed. Still, it was nice debating with you. Keep well.
Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:13 PM
And so why then should one punished for his/her sin by taking rebirths ? They can be directly placed in heaven ?
Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:13 PM
And so why then should one punished for his/her sin by taking rebirths ? They can be directly placed in heaven ?
Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:17 PM
Taking this theory logically forward, you also forfeit the right to punish anybody in this World as they not doing these acts.
Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:17 PM
Taking this theory logically forward, you also forfeit the right to punish anybody in this World as they are not doing these acts.
Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:19 PM
You can also let off the perpetrators of the Peshwar attacks for free if this theory is seriously considered for our life.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Indian on Jan 13, 2015 09:09 AM
Though I won't post anything further. I thought I would clarify this. Till you are attached to your body-mind entity, you are bound by laws of Karma and so you must suffer.
Who is killing ? Whom he is killing ? Who suffers ? The ignorant persons (of Self) see it differently than the Self-realised ones. It is very difficult subject to understand and not recommended for people who are not spiritually advanced.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 13, 2015 10:31 AM
Not to ruffle your feathers, if Kr1shna himself had believed in this theory seriously, there would not have been Kurukshetra and loss of countless lives. The fight was between P@ndavas and K@urvas, what did their individual armies do to warrant such an horrific end ? Taking this theory forward, the P@ndavas suffered because of their past deeds at the hands of K@uravas who were at the receiving end in the earlier birth. But Kr1shna intervened in this karmic process purportedly to establish dh@rma but that was unfair to the K@uravas who were denied the revenge.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Indian on Jan 13, 2015 01:13 PM
The answer lies in understanding difference between VyAvhArika Satyam and ParmArthika Satyam which this place is not suitable to discuss.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 13, 2015 10:42 AM
Spiritualism is all about being immaterial and that is its definition. You say till we are detached from our mind-body duality, we are bound by the laws of karma. It only means that still we are humans we are bound to suffer its consequences because body and mind are mutually inclusive and interdependent. They can never be detached. You claim I am ignorant than self-realised ones. But honestly speaking will a self-realized person relish the prospect of witnessing a gruesome massacre before his very eyes and be detached from it. Is it possible ? It is easier to preach but impossible to practice. Taking your theory forward, even Kr1shna for that matter was not a self realized one for he presided over a war although he was preaching otherwise. So, even G0d could not practice what he preached in the first place. Sorry to offend you and your sentiments, but truth is indeed harsh.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 13, 2015 10:43 AM
Spiritualism is all about being immaterial and that is its definition. You say till we are detached from our mind-body duality, we are bound by the laws of karma. It only means that still we are humans we are bound to suffer its consequences because body and mind are mutually inclusive and interdependent. They can never be detached. You claim I am ignorant than self-realised ones. But honestly speaking will a self-realized person relish the prospect of witnessing a gruesome massacre before his very eyes and be detached from it. Is it possible ? It is easier to preach but impossible to practice. Taking your theory forward, even Kr1shna for that matter was not a self realized one for he presided over a war although he was preaching otherwise. So, even G0d could not practice what he preached in the first place. Sorry to offend you and your sentiments, but truth is indeed harsh.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Indian on Jan 14, 2015 09:43 AM
See both I and you are not Self-realised ones. When it is said that, "No one can kill anyone and no one is ever killed" ... it is Paramarthika satyam (highest Truth). However, Lord Krishna advises in BG to act while in this world as per our roles. The fighter should fight, the judge should punish/reward etc. When we see Hitler's acts, we should act as per our roles. What are we supposed to do against such acts ? This we have to understand and act accordingly. This relates to VyAvahArika Satyam or Relative Practical Truth.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justice-Karma
by Vascado on Jan 14, 2015 11:16 AM
Well I can argue that Hitler behaved the way he did due to karmic reaction and as a fall out of injustices that were delivered to him in his earlier birth for which he was extracting revenge in this birth in the form of Holocaust which claimed the lives of over 6 crore people. What did those 6 crore did to merit this ? They were all innocents who were not any way connected with political developments and ego clashes between rulers, but they suffered. There can be no explanation for it. But the L@w of K@rma tries to explain this but without much conviction.
Hitler was responsible for the Holacaust and 2nd World war inflicting humungous casaulty on the World. On a rough estimate, over 4 crore people lost their lives which could be even higher. If the law of karma were to remain accurate in the universe, how would someone like Hitler, pay for his atrocities ? On an conservative estimate, it would take him over 200,000,000 years to pay for his crimes through the wheel of rebirth. This is about 2 billion years and not likely to happen as the Earth itself is likely to become extinct by then because there have been 5 extinction level events in the last 550 million years according to geographical records by carbon dating. So, the question arises as to why a petty killer should be held for crime while psychopaths like H1tler gets away ? In a just universe they shouldn't. Under the most basic critical analysis, no one pays for murder unless they receive physical punishment or reprisals and half of murders are never solved either due to lack of witness and low conviction rates. So, both human form of justice and d1vine form of justice are ineffective and there is really no justice in the universe and it is a lawless land. Why do the rich have body guards ? They understand this equation.
Re: DEAR INDIAN - MY FURTHER THOUGHTS
by King Kong on Jan 31, 2015 08:40 PM
But you yourself quoted in one of your comments from Gita that - "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, I perpetually cast into transmigration, into various demoniac species of life" (16,19). And also: "Those who worship me and surrender all their activities unto me, being devoted to me without hesitation, engaged in devotional service and meditating unto me, I deliver them quickly from the ocean of birth and death" (12,6-7)". And if this doesn't happen, God or Lord or whoever He is, is a Liar then! Or do you want Him to punish Hitler in front of you?
There is no Karma unless you own the Karma i.e. you are attached to your body-mind entity (which arises in Prakriti). If you can act in this world as mere witness, you don't accrue any Karma. In fact, BG says that all the actions/Karma are performed by three gunas of Nature but the Jeeva (i.e. the body-mind entity) wrongly assumes that he is the doer and therefore suffers.
Re: Justice-Injustice-Karma etc. etc.
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:04 PM
Well I am no authority on BG, on a cursory look,one can find the BG itself contradicting with what it forwarded earlier. What do you mean by acting in this world as mere witness when the purpose is to live ? BG divides the body, mind and soul but it is its own perspective. In real scientific World, they are one.
Re: Justice-Injustice-Karma etc. etc.
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:05 PM
Well I am no authority on BG, on a cursory look,one can find the BG itself contradicting with what it forwarded earlier. What do you mean by acting in this world as mere witness when the purpose is to live ? BG divides the body, mind and soul but it is its own perspective. In real scientific World, they are one.
Re: Justice-Injustice-Karma etc. etc.
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 06:10 PM
Well I am no authority on BG, on a cursory look,one can find the BG itself contradicting with what it forwarded earlier. What do you mean by acting in this world as mere witness when the purpose is to live ? BG divides the body, mind and soul but it is its own perspective. In real scientific World, they are one.
Re: Regarding re-births based on Past karma
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 05:55 PM
Ofcourse and that is precisely the point because BG too deals only with law of karma with its rebirth concept which I stressed and you disputed.
Re: Re: Regarding re-births based on Past karma
by Indian on Jan 12, 2015 06:12 PM
Can you show me where I disputed this ? I was emphasizing on how even the Karma in present life helps in shaping our future. You disputed that.
Re: Re: Re: Regarding re-births based on Past karma
by Vascado on Jan 13, 2015 12:15 PM
How could I have disputed it when the essence of my argument was about karma based on rebirth and I was pointing about its logical inadequacies ?
Re: Regarding re-births based on Past karma
by Vascado on Jan 12, 2015 05:55 PM
Ofcourse and that is precisely the point because BG too deals only with law of karma with its rebirth concept which I stressed and you disputed.
Please check you posts. You said that present Karmas cannot lessen past Karma. This is nowhere written in BG. Even though Wiki is no encylo (as it is not written by experts-you can check it), the excerpt doesn't support your statement.
Do you know that even a thought-process in your mind now is accruing Karma and changing the course of events in your life ?
