I was really very appreciative of the author as long as I read the paragraph "Ignorance in Faith". After reading this para, I concluded that author belives that Lord Rama is not God and other things that he has stated.
My question is, if you don't belive Lord Rama to be God, then what is the fuss all about, why did you write the whole thing, just to show that you have read the Vedas and are an erudite scholar. If he is not God, then even if somebody questions his existence why do you care.
The author has said that Valmiki does not state that Lord Rama is God, I cannot quote any particular verse from the Valmiki Ramayana, but can definitely say that this is wrong.
RE:The Author has cofused me
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 16, 2008 07:57 AM
TP, even if a person is not God, we do care when his existence is questioned. We respect both mythological and historical figures. You might have a different opinion. But see just because there is a lot of debate on Rama being God/Human being, does not mean we stop believing and throw our hands up. There will always be a group of people who would worship Rama as God and another group who would worship him as a Historical figure. Either way, it bottles down to the same - preserving his name and everything associated with it.
RE:The Author has cofused me
by Kris iyer on Apr 16, 2008 05:16 PM
Yes, Sunshine, I agree. Many millions of Hindus will always be inspired by Raja Ram, a NOBLE MAN, a spark of Divinity, a great Ruler. We Love Him, Revere Him. It does not matter whether he lived 7,000 years ago or 70 lakh years ago. The dates do NOT matter to us. He lives within us. When we listen to His life story, we are transported to another world. We leave our cares of this earth behind us. He is "historical" and "true" for us, because He is within us. We are "true" and "historical", therefore, He is "true" and "historical".
i dont have the time to write a full comemnt, so will restrict to afew points.
it is a very good article and presents some interesting historical facts. in a brief reading i found 2 weaknesse in the arguments.
1.that ram lived 8,69,108 years ago is alittle far-fethced, since the earliest recorded history is not even 10,000 years old. there HAVE to be njumerous secondary confirmations for this date to be accepted as reliable. unfortunately there are none. 2. that the hanuman sethu is man-made is another weak point. if oyu look at satellite pictures of islands near larger land masses, you will see similar submerged rock formations. i have myself seen a few on the net.
i think the bigger problem here is that we Indians tend to get emotional about such things, rather than doing solid archaelogical or historical research
RE:RE:Did Ram exist ?
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 16, 2008 09:17 AM
Everything you said is fine from your point, but please do not limit this to just "Indians". EVERY RELIGION, EVERY COUNTRY IN THIS WORLD FIGHTS TOOTH AND NAIL IN THEIR DEFENCE. Yes, every religion. Every country. It is possible to find 100s of discrepencies in each religion and there have been enough books written on them, some are under ban and some are not. So where does this latest fashion come from, where you take pride in admitting that your country/your religion/ your family is the only unscientific and emotional one??
Dear Ajay, Archeology, History, all have their own limitations. The archeologists's claims only apply to the discovered things within a few hundred meters depth. So with the discovery of a few skeletons, predicting the possible age of human civilization and characterizing the finding and finally generalizing it is not logical. There are still a lot of loopholes in the present system. The non availability of complete information of fossil scatter area and crust changes is the biggest drawback faced. Aren't there mismatches in the prediction of weather? Tornadoes? Hurricanes? Why, then, is it so difficult for people to be convinced that there might be mistakes here? We still have a long way to go before we can prove/disprove any theory, scientific, historical or mythological.
RE:Did Ram exist ?
by Kris iyer on Apr 18, 2008 08:05 PM
Dear Eternal Sunshine, Good response from you. In all my travels, I have never come across any group as critical of their own, as the Hindus. It may be due to the 800 years of discouragement Hindus have received - they were ruled by non-Hindus for centuries, paid Jaziya tax to visit Kashi, Mathura and Prayag, accepted Western missionary interpretation of Hinduism and Hindu history. You may find that the so-called "uneducated" Hindus in the rural areas, are better than the urban educated ones, in the comfort level and "Sraddha" level they show towards their ancient way of life, outlook. When they sing Bhajans, they are so totally committed in their Bhakthi. They are not distracted by all these historicity of Raja Ram, astronomy, dates, etecetera. To them, Raja Ram IS SIMPLY THERE. He comes when they do Jap. He is a constant PRESENCE.
RE:Did Ram exist ?
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 21, 2008 03:40 PM
Dear Kris,the years of oppression have made us like this. We feel 'modern' when we repeat silly questions about our religion, which we hear from outsiders. You would also find a few guys proudly announcing that they are NRIs - assuming that the ones speaking in favour of Hinduism could only be saffron-clad villagers. Well isn't it possible for us to think and ponder, before agreeing with any Tom Dick and Harry about the 'weaknesses' in our religion? Until we realise that defending our religion, our country, our society is nothing to be ashamed of, people will always get away with portraying India as a dirty and backward country. Just a year back I saw a documentary about an Indian metro and all they showed were slums and fly-infested food and people bathing under tubewells. Not a glimpse of any of the numerous historical monuments in that city. The fault lies with us, we tend to overlook the beauty and concentrate on the ugliness, and we don't waste a moment sharing this ugliness with the world. If Science is the language of people these days, then doesn't Science teach us to go forward? Is making fun of Gods the only way Science can flourish?
As we can see very well here, people who ask meaningless questions don't last for long. Most of their knowledge is copy paste and when you try to argue with logic, they run away or get abusive.
RE:RE:Did Ram exist ?
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 21, 2008 03:44 PM
As for Ram and proving his existence, if someone is happy with his beliefs, why create issues? These are just evil ideas of some political leaders. There is a difference between faith and blind faith, and as long as I am not blindly jumping from a cliff hoping for Lord Rama to save me, or trying to cross an ocean hoping God would help me walk on water, what's the harm if I am offering prayers in peace? Trying to make this a political issue by raising questions about God's existence, is going to prove harmful not only to Hinduism but to other religions as well. We are only human beings and we would naturally start raising fingers at other religions if someone questions our faith!!!! Where does that take us all? To more riots? Is this what our country needs now?
History is quite fascinating. Recent researches around the world have thrown up powerful evidence that has changed our knowledge, what was once thought a myth had sound provable basis. India is perhaps 200 years behind in discovering it's past. Short-term thinking means that such work is not approved by politicians.
Like the recent finding of the city of Troy, which was thought a myth, it is with proper research and investigation that archaeology will find positive evidence of Ram. As we find with other ancient stories, that previously were taken as false, there is always truth behind stories that prevail. The story of Ramayana has to have a basis, and in terms of factual information has as much, if not more, than religious books of other faiths that are not questioned.
RE:Archaeology
by Kris iyer on Apr 16, 2008 05:21 PM
Very true, J. Bell. The analogy with Troy is apt. This "Ram-Sethu" or Adam's Bridge, seems so purposeful in its linkages to the two land-masses, so neat and straight, with no hazphazard "natural" continuation in all directions of similar accumulations, it makes one wonder. As you say, archaeology, may reveal more and more info., but it would take time.
RE:Archaeology
by galilio on Apr 17, 2008 12:43 PM
on Ram sethu bridge is visible to eyes from the start to end which you can see both from sirlanka and india and also from areoplane.if it is natural,it will not be chained in a line from start to end.ram sethu name figure in ancient tamil scriputres like manimekalai and in purananuru besides in alwars pasarams.during the time of ramayana,sanatana dharma was prevailing with vedas occupying important role and hence even ravana is an expert in sama veda and he was true devotee of lord siva and have knowledge about dharma.but for his abduction of sita devi, he was even admired by hanuman on first seeing ref sundra kanda.becouse he knew dharma,he allowed vibhishna his brother to join with lord ram and he did not harm vibhishna for deserting him. just compare mohul leader aurangazep,just for the sake of power and his brothers desire towards hinduism, aurangazep killed all his brothers and sentensed to jail his sister.so imagine the great difference between hinduism and other religions.
RE:Archaeology
by Kris iyer on Apr 18, 2008 08:16 PM
Dear Galilio, Extremely GOOD points you have made. I have seen a video taken of the Ramar Sethu, from a plane. My immediate reaction was, "It is too straight, purposeful, insofar as it connects the two shortest points in the land masses of the two countries." Yes, very old Tamil works, such as "Pura Nanooru" mention the Sethu. Taking all the literary evidence from Tamil sources and Valmiki together, we do have something that was, probably, "put together" by a large number of humans, under the leadership and guidance of a very capable person. Of course, it is a puzzle, how it could have been done in ancient times, without machinery of the sort we use today. In any case, that it is a "natural formation" is an explanation that seems unconvincing, at present.
History is quite fascinating. Recent researches around the world have thrown up powerful evidence that has changed our knowledge, what was once thought a myth had sound provable basis. India is perhaps 200 years behind in discovering it's past. Short-term thinking means that such work is not approved by politicians.
Like the recent finding of the city of Troy, which was thought a myth, it is with proper research and investigation that archaeology will find positive evidence of Ram. As we find with other ancient stories, that previously were taken as false, there is always truth behind stories that prevail. The story of Ramayana has to have a basis, and in terms of factual information has as much, if not more, than religious books of other faiths that are not questioned.
It is truly a great effort to enlighten the public with perverse mind to know the existence of maryada puroshottam with facts and figures. Well one has to understand the divine soul of purushottam Raja Ram who lived millions and millions of years ago and still live in our hearts. The events mentioned in Valmiki's Ramayana and Tulsidas's Ram Charitra Manas are not fictions but real events. If any body who has historical statistics should put more light on this, not to prove his existence but to enlighten those who are ignorant about historicity or events connected with Rama
It only need us to be powerful then we can persuade the world about the historicity of ram. Its the hypocrisy of pseudo intellectuals that they have started a new game altogether, that of denying ram. The poor hindu baiters.
Even Sri Sri Ravishankar and then Kalki and Premananda are treated as Avtars by some people. Shiva Shiva, My Lord Shiva, please save the Hindu Religion from all these goons who are bent upon maligning you Holy Name and this Land of Hindus. These Vaishnavite Aryans have already sold out your Abode at Kailash Mansarovar to Commie China and the Indus Valley civilisation sites to Islamist Porkland. Please save the religion from these dangerous people who, claim to be Hindus but work against you, Lord Shiva. Only you can save this Land and this Religion.
