>>>Valmiki proudly says to Ram, 'I am the 10th son of Pracheta, and I never remember speaking even one untrue sentence'. How can such a missionary and follower of truth could have written an imaginary story of Ram?
God must know all and should know about valmik. Ram was not god, he could have been a good king, ruler etc, but certainly not god.
>>>6. Even if by default we accept that Ram and Ramayana are the imagination of a poet, then at least we accept that the poet was real and lived on this earth, and was not imaginary. No one has ever doubted that Valmiki lived. His life has been chronicled in detail in Skand Puran, Bhavishya Puran and Adhyatma Ramayana. When Valmiki meets Ram for the first time, he says, as given in Valmiki Ramayana (7.96.19):
Just because the author existed, does his novel become true, then what about the present time fiction, is it all true. The writer of this article has illogical thinking.
>>> When a man has begun to be ashamed of his ancestors and his past, the end has come'.
Why should i not question my ancestors?? Why should i glorify wrongs/crimes of my ancestors or not be ashamed of them?? this is twisted logic without any reason. the author is doing double talk, just to justify his writing. Very far from truth.
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 15, 2008 04:04 PM
Be it as a manifestation of God or simply as a legendary hero of myths and folktales, Rama is an immensely revered and inspirational figure to people across the Indian subcontinent and South East Asia, as well as increasingly across Western civilization, where the Hindu epics and values are gaining recognition and popularity. In Jainism, Rama is enumerated among the nine white Balas. He is revered in Sikhism,(in the Guru Granth Sahib)[citation needed]
Rama is a great hero to the adherents of Agama Hindu Dharma and to the Muslims who practice Abangan, a syncretic form of Islam and Hinduism, in Indonesia. He is revered by the people of Thailand, Malaysia, Myanmar, Cambodia and Vietnam, who otherwise adhere to different forms of Buddhism, Islam and Hinduism. The Rama Leela is performed across South East Asia in numerous local languages and the story has been the subject of art, architecture, music, folk dance and sculpture. The ancient city of Ayutthaya stands in Thailand, as the tribute of an ancient Thai kingdom to the great legend. Many ancient and medieval era kings of South East Asia have adopted Rama as their name.
A Buddhist version of the tale is found in the Jataka stories, in the Dasharatha Jataka (Jataka Atthakatha 461) in the Pali vernacular. Here Rama is represented as a former life of the Buddha as a Bodhisatva and supreme Dharma King of great wisdom. In the Buddhist tale, he is the king of Varanasi and not Ayodhya, which is traditionally the capital of Kosal
RE:RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 15, 2008 04:06 PM
Just gathering material from here and there so you stop targetting only the author of this article. :):):)
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by Manjula A on Apr 15, 2008 01:29 PM
When a man has begun to be ashamed of his ancestors and his past, the end has come.
This is the only reasons the Aryans don't want to face the historic truth of the shameless deeds of their ancestors. They will go to any extent of fraud, invent seals like that criminal Rajaraman did and live in denial of the obvious truth. Because they don't want to be ashameed of thier ancestors. But the fact remains that the ancestors of the Aryans have done shameful deeds. May Shiv Shambhu give them courage to accept the truth.
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by Kris iyer on Apr 15, 2008 01:46 PM
Rajadhi,Raja,Rajendra Chola, The main issue is: How does one prove, then connect with God? Unfortunately, we cannot ring him up on his mobile to make an appointment to go See Him/Her/It. Take Chola's logic into this interview: "Hai, Dude, whoever you are, please convince us you are God". The Palestinian religions of Judaism, Christianity and Arabian religion of Islam rely wholly on "Prophets", who had performed many miracles, had dealt with Angels, had many extraordinary qualities about them, signifying their connection with God. Some were born out of virgins, some went to Heaven leaving no dead body behind and so on. Likewise, Hindus too saw God's Influence in many human heroes, so they called them Avatars. As in the other religions, the Hindu Avatars had performed extra-ordinary deeds, in their human form. The only difference between Hinduism and the other religions is that, Hindus did not record in writing all the details, then call just ONE book a HOLY BOOK. They did not call The Ramayana, the ONLY HOLY BOOK. The MahaBharata, The Bhagavadam, The Puranas and the Great Gita, are ALL HOLY Books of Hinduism. Hindus let ordinary people, re-enact the life-history of their "divine" heroes in the form of popular narrations, using songs and drama. Hindus do not mind movies made out of these Avatars. Unlike the Palentinian religions, Hindus mix art and religion, freely. Whereas a Holy Book is taken seriously, the art forms of song and dance is dismissed as special anthropology.
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by RRRChola on Apr 15, 2008 02:13 PM
kris, appreciate your reply. we worship the avatars or god? if ram was an avatar, he is not god, then who is god?, why ram should be worshipped? tell me about the images, where did the rams image come from? is it part of anthrpology?
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 15, 2008 03:53 PM
NO it's not a part of anthropology. I suppose you are doctorate in that subject so you would know better. This is just the faith of the believers.
And yes, we worship both Avatars and God(though I do not know about you). God is the supreme power to whom Rama himself bowed to. Open your mind's eye and you will see, God is everywhere. Nobody is forcing you to worship Rama at gun-point. Believing in Shiva/Jesus/Allah is entirely a personal decision, so please refrain from asking unnecessary questions. We are not the slightest bit inquisitive about who you are bowing to.
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by RRRChola on Apr 15, 2008 05:09 PM
Dear Sunshine, no, i am not into anthropology, i think you are offended by my comments, it was not my intention. Non offense meant to anyone be it a Hindu, Muslim, Xian or any other faith. Nor anyone is forcing me to believe in any faith. Its my own quest to know the truth or to say know myself better.
I do not agree with 'dont ask questions' attitude - it could be something to hide or weak faith or lack of knowledge. You say ram bowed to god, could you give me references on this please.
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 16, 2008 07:24 AM
Dear RRRChola,
All my life I have seen that people of all other religions get very defensive when someone questions their faith. So,I am not the odd one here who is taking offence at your queries. If you are really in search of knowledge I would not show a 'don't ask questions' attitude. But it is ridiculous to bring anthropology into it, you should realise this.
Ramayana, Mahabharata, the Vedas, the Upanishads - are among the longest pieces of literature in the world. It needs a lot of study to explicitly understand every story therein. You cannot keep asking questions in a forum and expect people to have their patience and teach you from scratch. Hence I told you to refrain from asking unnecessary questions - not because I am scared of answering them, but because you should learn in the right way AND with respect.
"something to hide or weak faith or lack of knowledge"?
- I would not claim to have memorised all these holy books by my heart, so in case I am not aware of the answers I will say that out straight to you, you won't have to guess my lack of knowlegde. Learning is a never-ending process, and I am not ashamed to admit that my knowledge is not exhaustive. The person who thinks he knows everything, is the biggest fool.
Regarding your other query, Rama bowed to the Sun God and also Durga/Shakti, as per my knowledge of Ramayana. If you have read it as much as I did (which is very little), you would have known at least this. But it's always better if y
RE:RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by TP on Apr 15, 2008 11:31 PM
Dear RRR Chola, Asking questions is all right, but as the Bhagvad Gita says that the questions have to be asked from the right person with the right attitude. As far as your questions about self realisation or knowing your self and God are concerned, you will have to search for a Guru who is self realised and submit to him, serve him and then inquire from him submissively, not with a challenging attitude, because that will not help. If you think then it is just like any other material subject, but because this subject is spiritual, it needs something more and that is mercy of the Guru. I don't know if I have answered your question but my email id is tp0311@yahoo.com, if you need to discuss this further.
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by Kris iyer on Apr 16, 2008 05:37 PM
Dear RRRChola, Like TP and Eternal Sunshine, I am now happy that you are a genuine inquirer. At first, I thought you were one of those "rationalists" from TamilNadu, who blindly attack Hinduism from all angles, tramping on the Ramayana, in particular. I am sorry, I misunderstood you first. I agree with both TP and Eternal Sunshine, in their comments to you. We wish we could help you a lot more.
With Hinduism, you will find that, as the oldest religion in the world, it has accumulated many, many explanations over several generations. It has not sought to "standardise" even important notions, such as God-head, worshipping through either Pooja or meditation and so on. But, remarkably, on their own, Hindus have come to a standard, throughout this world. Now Hindus live in almost every major country in this world. Therefore, it does take some patient study of some good books and attending "Upanyasas" by learned Gurus. May I suggest, you start with Rajaji's Tamil version of the Ramayana, "Chakravarthi ThiruMagan" or any of "Cho" Ramaswamy's books on Hinduism. Kavignar Kannadasan's "Artrhamulla Hindu Madham" is very very good for people of all ages and outlooks. Please visit the book shop at Mylapore: Ramakrishna Book Depot. You can also spend time at the Library of Ramakrishna Matam in T'Nagar Chennai. At Uththandi, near Chennai, you can listen to Swami Sudhbhavananda on his discourses. Both in English and Tamil, since you know both languages well, you will find many books.
RE:Inconsistencies, bad, too bad.
by mani sals on Apr 16, 2008 07:53 AM
Just teh same reason why you would fast when Amitabha baccahn or sharu khan is in problem... You see.. its we who make humans god. God is truth and every religion is based on falsification. No one dares to question teh truth... you will have all teh imple answers if truth was to be told.
RE:Question?
by Kris iyer on Apr 15, 2008 02:09 PM
Rajadhi Raja Rajendra Chozha, The first image of Prince Rama, was made at Ayodhya, soon after He was born. It was a painting by Dasaratha's royal painter. We are all looking for this painting, right now. As Raja Ram grew up, the photos were also different because there were changes in his looks, height, weight and so on.. But the "Wedding photo" of Raja Ram and Kumari Sita, I am hoping to get from a photographer in Mylapore. You see it had earlier been sent to USA for carbon-dating. So, it may take some time to reach me. The trouble is, the official photographer sent with Raja Ram and Prince Lakshman, when they went escorting Sage Viswamitra, was, unfortunately eaten by the demoness Thatakai - along with his camera. It was then that Raja Ram decided to kill her.
Sorry, yours is a serious question: The first Vigraha of Bhagwan Rama, we have access to, was probably made in the early Gupta period around 200 A.D. But there would have been Vigrahas of Rama,Sita, Lakshmana and Hanuman, from even earlier times but mostly lost to us. The modern version you see was drawn by Raja Ravi Varma. In temple sculptures going back about 1200 years, there are changes in the way Rama is depicted. In some he is seen carrying a sword in addition to the long bow. In a statue of Rama, unearthed in the NWFP, now in Pakistan, he is shown wearing a battle armour. In Indonesia and Siam Rama, is not always shown with his long bow. Please consult, Anand Coomaraswamy, History of Indian Art.
In the mid-satya-yuga of the first maha-yuga of the present manvantara i.e., around 115 million years ago there lived a King of the Solar dynasty, by name Kakudmi, and his beautiful daughter Revati. Not trusting the astrologers of his time, yet believing in the maxim %u2018marriages are made in heaven%u2019 Kakudmi took his daughter to the celestial world of Brahma the Creator (Note: in every satya-yuga such journeys are supposed to be possible) in order to ask the Creator Himself as to who would be the right marital match for his daughter. Kakudmi had somebody in his own mind. But Lord Brahma was available to him only after a twenty minutes or so of waiting time (by the standards of that world). When Kakudmi finally had the opportunity to ask Brahma his question, Brahma laughed and said:
My dear Kakudmi, from the time you came here your earthly world has passed through 27 maha-yugas and so none of whom you have in mind or their descendents are alive now. Right now people are enjoying the avatara (=descent) of Lord Krishna on the Earth. Go back and marry off your daughter to Balarama, the elder brother of Krishna%u2019.
Thus it was that Kakudmi and Revati travelled %u2018back to their future%u2019 -- from the 1st mahayuga to the 27th -- and Revati was married to Balarama.
Note: 1 mahayuga = 43.2 %u2018seconds%u2019 for Brahma.
Fiji Indians call their temples, "Ramayan Sanstha", not just Mandhirs". The last ship that left with Bihari, U.P. and Andhra Indians to Fiji left Calcutta port in 1912. Before our "pseudo-secular" era, The Ramayana and the history of the life of Raja Ram and Sita Devi, was at the every heart of Hinduism. Commissioner Dr. SP Singh has listed, several regional versions of the Great Ramayan. Every poet and intellectual in India, in the centuries gone by, many in Indonesia, Siam, as far as Vietnam wanted to write the story of Raja Ram in their own words. Most composers in South India, Thyagaraj Swamy, Badrachala Ramdas Swamy, for instance, composed their songs, after sublime inspiration from the life story of Raja Ram. Valmiki was only recording what he had seen and heard in person. Every great event in India, was spread through songs and "Katha". Unfortunately, some Kathakaars may have introduced some fantastic, imaginary elements to impress their audiences. But the core story of the Ramayana is a fact. Raja Ram was treated as an Avatar, even in his life time. He was as real a prophet as any in the middle-east that Christians and Muslims celebrate. To want to know more about Raja Ram is in Hindu blood. May Hindus remember Him for ever.
RE:The Historicity of Raja Ram of Raghu Vamnsh
by galilio on Apr 15, 2008 01:34 PM
BANK OF RAMA, BANK OF AYODHIA are famous banks in thailand and in indonesia.these banks do not want to open branches in india fear of psudo securalists and anti hindu congress govt supported by communists.india forget ram but tourism flourish in thailand/indonesia due to ramayana play is conducted during festival time in important tourist spots to attract western people.upa anti hindu attitude gave bad name to india.
RE:The Historicity of Raja Ram of Raghu Vamnsh
by Manjula A on Apr 15, 2008 01:06 PM
Even Sri Sri Ravishankar and then Kalki and Premananda are treated as Avtars by some people. Shiva Shiva, My Lord Shiva, please save the Hindu Religion from all these goons who are bent upon maligning you Holy Name and this Land of Hindus. These Vaishnavite Aryans have already sold out your Abode at Kailash Mansarovar to Commie China and the Indus Valley civilisation sites to Islamist Porkland. Please save the religion from these dangerous people who, claim to be Hindus but work against you, Lord Shiva. Only you can save this Land and this Religion.
NASA poured cold water on claims by Hindu news services that the US agency's spaceborne cameras had discovered the remains of the mythical bridge built by Rama across the Palk Strait. "Remote sensing images or photographs from orbit cannot provide direct information about the origin or age of a chain of islands, and certainly cannot determine whether humans were involved in producing any of the patterns seen," said NASA official Mark Hess. NRI websites like Indolink.com and the Vaishnava News Network had run a story earlier this week saying that "space images taken by NASA" had revealed "a mysterious ancient bridge in the Palk Strait." The story gained currency when it was picked up, unquestioningly, by the PTI. NASA said the mysterious bridge was nothing more than a 30 km long, naturally-occuring chain of sandbanks called Adam's bridge. Hess said his agency had been taking pictures of these shoals for years. Its images had never resulted in any scientific discovery in the area. The Internet story further claimed "archaeological studies reveal that the first signs of human inhabitants in Sri Lanka date back to%u2026about 1.75 million years ago" as does the age of the bridge. This, in turn, matched the age when the events of the Ramayana took place.
RE:Its an old hoax part 1
by Prasad Manokaran on Apr 15, 2008 10:18 AM
Its an old Hoax part 2 Historian B.D. Chattopadhyay of Jawaharlal Nehru University says the archaeological record says nothing of the sort. There is no evidence of a human presence in the subcontinent, he says, before roughly 250,000 to 300,000 years ago. It is generally believed man's hominid ancestors did not leave their African home until about two million years ago. At least three ship channels have been dug through Adam's Bridge without any evidence of manmade construction. The sandbanks are not at a greater depth, never being more than 3 or 4 feet at high tide. Geologists believe the sandbank did at one time rise above sealevel. Temple records suggest it was submerged by a violent storm as recently as 1480.
Communication experts say that false, suspect news finds much greater circulation than normal because of the internet. NASA's Hess said, "The images reproduced on the websites may well be ours, but their interpretation is certainly not ours."
RE:Its an old hoax part 1
by Kris iyer on Apr 15, 2008 02:38 PM
Prasad, As "Sunshine" says below, it is not clear what NASA's stand is. The formation is too neat and straight in the linkage it provides, to give rise to the initial question -"Could it have been built for the sole purpose of crossing this sea?" There are many reef formations but none as "deliberate-looking" as this. I am told there no other reefs in the vicinity, so that we can see this as part of a greater chain, such as the Great Barrier Reef in Australian waters. Do you know of any other connecting two land-masses? If you take the totality of the Ramayana, all the detailed and accurate description of the mountains, lakes, forests and savannahs in India and Sri Lanka, it makes you pause to think hard. The Ramayana is too entrenched in the traditions of not just one Asian country but in almost all of SEAsia as well - as far as the Philippines. Raja Ram's sons, Lava and Kucha travelled throughout North, Northwest India, narrating the story of their parents, Lava settled in the Punjab in a city now named after him, LAHORE [LAVAHOOR]. So, place names, the depth to which the ordinary people of India know the Ramayana for generations. Did you know, TulsiDas wrote the RamCharitMananas because he found that the ordinary people did not understand Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana. He wrote his Hindi version by PUBLIC DEMAND, so to speak. I have seen agnostics and atheists listening to a good Upanyasakar narrating the Ramayana, shedding tears as the story unfolds. It is a moving story.
RE:Its an old hoax part 1
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 15, 2008 10:39 AM
As religious groups protested on the grounds that the bridge was built by Lord Ram more than a million years ago, project officials and the shipping ministry had said Nasa documentation showed the linked formations were a natural phenomenon and %u201Ctheir occurrence is not evidence of any human activity.%u201D
But now a National Aeronautics and Space Administration (Nasa) spokesman says the agency has made no official statement over the origins of the Adams Bridge, a coral walkway between Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka slated for dredging to shorten shipping routes.
So we see, NASA also poured water over the claims that the bridge was a natural formation.
Let us now keep NASA away from this , till they come up with more fantastic ideas, none of which can be 100% true, given the fact that their data is limited.
Ram is Parbhrama meaning above all the other gods Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh. As for the effort trying to establish the fact that Ram existed in particular era, its useless, as Ram existed in every threta yug of a Kalp. A Kalp starts with satyug then threta, then duapar and then kalyug. So Ram comes in every threta yug. And if you try to reach to a conclusion or try to establish factual or linear data, its of no use. It's a matter of faith and trying to establish facts logically. The remaining religions are very young, but there was a time when every Muslim, every Christian, every Jew and every other religion man was a Hindu. But today the sad thing is Hindus are themselves doubting thomas, had it been something to do with Muslim God or Christian God, I am sure you never would need to convince a muslim or a christian then why does a hindu needs to be convinced of his God. Hindus think!!!!!!!!!!
RE:Ram is Parbhrama
by Eternal Sunshine on Apr 15, 2008 10:44 AM
Exactly. We are not demeaning the Koran or Bible. Why are we and our Gods always facing criticism? This is sheer jealousy by people who cannot stand our rich culture and heritage.
If they were satisfied with their own lives and religion, they wouldnt need to waste their breath pointing fingers at Hinduism.
The Hindu Religion is about worshiping Lord Shiva and Mata. But of late, these populist hinduists have twisted the Holy religion into tales of mythology making the unsuspecting Hindus worship Humans instead of God, Lord Shiva. Ram, Krishn, Kalki, Osho, Premananda and Sri Sri Ravishankar are persons who have twisted the Hindu Religion with a view to popularise it and make it feel almost semetic. Americans and other white skinned people may fall for such populist practices. We Indians, the original Hindus should not stray away from our path and we should always worship Lord Shiva and Maata.
Please, Mr. Singh, please stop demeaning Hinduism by writing such stupid article. Hinduism is the most scientific religion that ever existed (until stupid "pseudo scientists" like Mr. Singh strated their research into Hinduism).
RE:Pseudo science
by Kris iyer on Apr 15, 2008 10:01 AM
Sudeep, You may know that Christian and Islamic missionaries have said that Raja Ram, [Later Bhagawan Ram to millions of Hindus] was ONLY a story - a story like the Pancha Tantra, and, therefore, Hindus should stop worshipping him, instead come to the "true" God - the Christian or Islamic God. Second, in the current "Ram-Sethu" controversy, some "pseudo-secularists" came up with a so-called "Report", as part of the docs they submitted to the S.Ct, that the Ramayana was a story and that Ram, therefore, never built this Sethu. I hope you begin to see the need to bring out whatever evidence there is to show the historicity of Raja Ram, who ruled in Ayodhya, belonged to a well-known dynasty, mentioned in ALL the Puranas and Ithihasas, both Hindu, Buddhist and Jain. What Commissioner SP Singh has done is to bring together, whatever literary and other evidence, there is to show that Raja Ram's life and tribulations was NOT Valmiki's imagination. The Ramayana records astrological data, geographical data [ every place, it mentions in India and Sri Lanka - mountains, lakes and forests - is still here, even the locations and distances in some cases are accurate ]. Therefore, Commissioner SP Singh is starting a process of informing people, hoping that more such research may show even better, scientific confirmation of Raja Ram, the Great Monarch who gave Ram-Rajya that generations of Hindus have remembered with great affection and gratitude. What a man he was, what an Avatar.
I have no doubt of Lord Rama as a historical figure. However, he was a human king born to human parents. It is true that he achieved God like status, but he was not God himself. This article is full of factual errors that I lost respect for those claims which is new to me.
Science has proven that modern human civilizations are 12000 to 15000 years old. To say that Ramam lived millions of years ago is ridiculous and challenging the collective intelligence of scientific community. It reminds me about Rome's opposition to theory of evolution and the "intelligent design" theory.
Again, NASA published a photo of the chain of islands between India and Sri lanka. These islands were known to everybody but nobody cared until NASA published that photo. Their interest was purely geographical. NASA never said that the structure is human made. Only when it became a controversy, they came up with the clarification.
RE:Full of factual errors
by mani sals on Apr 16, 2008 07:42 AM
Point out the factual errors. And yes you are talking of morden civilisation which is 15000 years old...do you serioulsy belive that evolution is just 15K yeras old.. go back to school and study biology with more intrest.
RE:Full of factual errors
by kumar reddy on Apr 15, 2008 12:40 PM
Hi I appreciate your questioning of the religion.Thats the liberty we have in our culture and we should be allowed to have. So, u accept that Rama was a historical figure who was claimed to the status of god, this means that you accept that Ramayana was true and according to ramayana RAMA should have definitely built a bridge, whether it may exist now or not. And Rama should have definitely used those powerful Astras which are as powerful as todays weapons of Mass destrction. so, why couldn't normal humans such Astras in those days. We hear the use of these only in Ramayana and Mahabharatha. If the bridge is not a proof there are many proofs which show the existence of Ram in history and i also heard that the remains of Dwaraka were found. I can see christians dont like to question wherz the proof that Holy Bible was handed by Angels from heaven and also Muslims dont like to question what was the proof that god spoke to Prophet Mohammed and how can he say that the recitings of Holy Quran are nothing but the sayings of god. I dont say that it is our fault to question our faith, but why should we in the first case deny the existence of it, You can question it, explore it, find the truth, But never come to conclusions with out finding the truth. So why should we let the Ram sethu alias ADAMS bridge to be destroyed when it has become part of a historical discussion. Its an ancient property let us protect and explore it.
