RE:personal attacks
by Xavier on May 08, 2007 01:20 PM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah guys u r gr8 ...fighting over a topic 4 days in a row....not even sleeping till late night at times...
Ok... Firstly Dinesh, i am on ur side of the discussion abt Periyar. He did change a lot of things for the lower castes. His main motive was to bring equality among human beings. He was against Brahminism and not against brahmins. An example for that...he had an alternative Ramayana supporting Ravana instead of Ram. But when questioned why are u supporting Ravana who was a Brahmin & not Ram who was a non-Brhmin he didnt answer them.
It is also true that TN is better administered compared to others states. But is it upto the mark?? No..if u ask me...
Sriram, ur quote that Bharathiyar also fought untouchability, child marriage etc.etc....true...but he wasnt able to stop his own daughter from child marriage. See the film Bharathi for reference.
And for your info Periyar, when he was EVR was rich. His father as a big merchant. So his doings were no political stunts...he did all for the under-previlaged people. If he had wanted to make money, he cud have entered politics and dominated the scene at that time.
This man is getting cursed bcos he did a second marriage at a very old age is absurd. he didnt marry the woman for money or sex. She voluntered herself to marry him. She died 5 yrs after Periyar death. Even Emperor Ashoka was enlightened after the Kalinga war. Ashoka did kill many people during his early age, didnt he change after that? Periyar didnt kill any one.
He is also known as "Paguth arivu thanthai". The man who was responsible to induce the common sense among the under previlaged people. A post by Ruzo on this can help u understand....This is what he posted...
I did not live in Periyar's time, so if he was really against all brahmins and not the evils that was allegedly practised by them(and others) at that time, then EVR/periyar needs to be condemned strongly. But from what I read of him and using my own rationality , this is what I see: 1.Even now we have such strong viscereal feelings of God, be it Hindu, Muslim or any other religion that we blindly believe that if we do anything against "this entity called God" we would surely be punished;We would shudder to do something like garlanding deities with chappals. If this is the case at this age, then imagine at his time-- people just believed that is their karma that they are born into a "lowly family" and it was god's wish that they have to suffer that way. And Periyar had to do something radical as that to make sense into those people that nothing was going to happen to him by "garlanding gods with chappals" and that GOD wasn't responsible for their fates. C'mon the man lived till he was 95 years old;clearly GOd did not punish him for his actions as his intentions were right. He was very rich, he did not aspire for any political power and so clearly he wasn't doing any of those as a political stunt to rally the mass behind him, he was not from a lower caste nor was there any need for him to do any of the radical things he did. He seemed to be a selfless person who worked for the betterment of the common man--against untouchability, superstitious beliefs, woman empowerment etc., He was anti-god , some people seem to equate that with pro-christianty/pro-muslim etc., He was not in favor of any god or religion. He never said all hindus now convert to christianity/islam etc., He only fought against the evils in his religion that was prevalent at that time. His marrying a much younger girl, who literally admired him/worshipped him and who married him out of her own free-will for some strange reason seems to be sore-point for many out here. C'mon how many of us would call our own moms/dads as evil; won't we defend them at all costs , no matter what , especially in public; This guy was so detached he could actually ricule his own mother for the superstitious beliefs she had ! And this must make my north-indians really happy: this guy was in south india, so surely he must be a dim-wit,dark,ayyo-guy, right ?
Periyar was the most needed person on that moment.
But Dinesh i am not on ur side when it comes to reservations of today. I am with Sriram in that prespective. Too much of anything will turn poisonous. Brahminism is no longer followed by majority of Brahmins, But by other OBC's & BC's. Yes... brahminism is followed by other castes other than brahmins. Nadars, Vanniyar, Thevars, Vellalas, mudaliyars, chettiyars...etc ( I belong to one of these communities ), in the form of stubborness, in the form of discouraging inter-caste marriages, in forming community parties, in threatening the police, govt , even the court... Now they have started to repeat History of the brahmins...
Kamaraj didnt want caste based reservations, he was against caste .... now we have nadar peravai with his symbol...
The people benefited out reservations, need to give way for their the fellow community people to grow up. But this is not happening here. The benefited keep on getting benefits until they settle outside India...if this continues even after 600 yrs u will still see the underprevilaged....
Things have to change with time. it is the resistiveness to change a kind of brahminism. i hate that stubborness...it ruined my life.... It's like saying, "This is the way it's been so this is the way it shall stay..." it's pointless...I don't like when people are stubborned only to prove a point...Most times, the point in which they are trying to prove isn't of any value anyways...Or no longer applies to today's world...Often times, we find ourselves doing things just because "that's the way it's always been"... but we don't stop to think about if this is something that makes sense "today"... Know what I mean? Just because "it was always done that way" doesn't make it "right"...
RJD MP Shahabuddin has been fined Rs 1000 for his Kidnap charges & life imprisonment.But Rs 1000 as fine , doesnt it sound ridiculous??? This rs 1000 was something that was fixed when Ambedkar wrote it. they havnt reviewd it for the current age. they have just kept it..jus becos its there...
There is no point in continuing the reservations based on caste, it shud be based on their economic backwardness...it shud reach the poor & needy & hardworking....They shud change from backward castes to backward classes...
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 08, 2007 06:55 PM
hi xavier,do u think it is a good thing that the obcs are becoming more brahminized? u seem to be very sure that reservation is bad,that it is poisonous etc. have u bothered to go back to the parliamentary history behind this issue,how the move has progressed from the time the raja of kolhapur initiated reservations and how the princely state of mysore and the presidency of madras implemented reservations,its being included in the constitution and how we are here today.todays guys see no logic in the move because of their ignorance of the history behind it.it seems to be an enlightened view to have a stance against it.sriram,ur rational thinking is isolated from reality.u want ur thinking to be separate from ground reality,u dont accept the reality of parliament,democracy.u seem to think that u r bigger and smarter than parliamentary democracy.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 09, 2007 01:05 AM
You still have not answered my questions Dinesh. You cant and you wont because if you agree to what I am saying everything you enjoy for free today will not be there for you.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 10, 2007 12:24 AM
Logic can be seen any sane person why cant you? People who go for free things in life cannot see any logic in my questions because they don't want to see any.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 10, 2007 12:53 PM
what do u mean by free, dispossessed communities, communities which have no representation in certain sectors of the economy,are being given chances so that society has a broad base.that ideal is in contrast to a miniscule minority cornering the highest posts and then insisting and pretending that it has a superior makeup which enables it to perform. it is absolute crap,nothing else. when some people are being empowered,at every opportunity,u guys are screaming that they are not suited.ur screams will have two effects,bring in a sense of self doubt and secondly develop a determination to excel. but ur constant screaming is beginning to jar.it is becoming tiring. just take the case of tamilnadu,everybody who has become a doctor or engineer through reservation has brought them closer to the people and development is widespread. 13 % of the population can compete for 31 % of the seats.if the person is extremely brilliant,yet loses out on a seat,he will avail of the opportunities available later in life and shine.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 10, 2007 08:26 PM
You mean to say that all Ucs are economically rich. How naive. You say there should be a determination to excel how will you achieve that with reservations which promotes lethargy. Teach them the basics they will thrive for more. Why do you think the basic knowledge of a UC student and a reserved category students are different even though they come from the same school? Its this laziness and lethargy because the reserved category knows that he will get a seat no matter what. If that is the mentality then how will he excel? Where is the determination? You are contradicting your own thoughts. In case of tamilnadu I agree everyone has become an engineer but the question is in spite of having so many engineers why are bridges falling. Why is water being wasted? Why is the PWD dept depending on L&T and not home grown engineers for their projects. Why are roads in a miserable state? There cant be any good answers to that? If you travel around the world you will know what development is. Look at the infrastructure in other countries you will know what we lack. and you say that country is developing. Yes of course it is so is corruption and other menaces in the society. If you want these menace to go away you need good education Giving things free will only pave way for more of the same. I am not saying other countries are not corrupt. There is But the general public is not affected by that, Look at any govt office today. You cant move a paper without bribing. Most of th employees in govt offices are not UCs and you say we rule how naive Dinesh.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 10, 2007 09:12 PM
hey sriram,i never realised u were so owlish.where are bridges falling sir.have u been on the ecr in chennai.have u seen the new 6 lane it corridor.they have been done by tnrdc.i again ask u where r bridges falling. u r living in ur own imaginary world. u speak as if u have individually met every student in india or tamilnadu.ur generalisations r poor.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 10, 2007 09:20 PM
u guys r so full of crap.u have to be constantly given facts,if not ,u spin ur own stories.it is a pity that u cant take pride in ur own state and constantly find fault.im sure everytime anything wrong happens,u become happy. why r u existing like this sriram.u have a hate inside.i dont think ur hate can be matched by periyar followers.their hate atleast had some valid points,urs is totally lacking.i think this is ur fate,to live like this,an unsatisfied life,constantly finding faults.i hope u r a rare type and not every brahmin is like u.if the tnrdc had not done those works,u wud have believed ur juvenile fantasies.even if it hadnt done those works,the official dom in tamilnadu is a very intelligent one,reflecting the intelligence of the communities that have been empowered over the decades.i think the brahmins were capable of mugging,but when it comes to the real practical intelligence,they r nowhere near the other communities.remember u started the generalisations.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 11, 2007 12:11 AM
You live in a own world Dinesh You are the hate mongers we want to live in a caste free society and you need them because it gets you everything free. Now who has the sick mind you or me? I say do some hard work you are not ready for that. I say make reservations for basic education and not for advanced education you are not ready for that because it will compromise the life you are leading which is free. Then you accuse me of being sick. Satan should not be preaching. ECR is good for a reason. Its the IT corridor. No MNC will like to set up office in a place where roads are bad. How about Other places in Chennai. Do you even venture out of your house to suburbs? I guess the answer is no. You just have one road to show off. Bridges are not falling after they have been built by L&T. Stop saying that TN is developing. I love my country to see it being looted and destroyed. Maybe you do not thats why you support all ways and means of preventing development.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 11, 2007 12:53 AM
what is ur problem,sriram.i think i should become ur therapist. brahmins are just another community in tamilnadu,they dont have any special status. tamilnadu is supposed to be a well administered state. how many times do i have to repeat the facts. THEY ARE FACTS,SRIRAM. if u chose to focus on the negative aspect,ur life will be without any joy. u had some questions,what are they? if u can ask one at a time,it will be less confusing to u as well as me
RE:RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 11, 2007 02:02 AM
If you become my therapist I will become insane with hatred like you have. No thanks. Where did Brahmins crop up in this discussion? I am saying a caste less society with reservation for under privileged and you are saying Caste based with reservations? Now ask yourself who is right and who is wrong? No matter How many times I ask you some factual questions as to why you need to reserve on the basis of caste when the need is to remove them you don't have answers and you are talking about facts isn't that strange? Here is my first question
What classifies OBC when OBC stands for Other Backward classes and not castes. more Importantly what does Backward mean here?
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 11, 2007 02:12 AM
i have previously shown u about the criteria used by mandal.more importantly,about why caste was used as the starting point but not the be all and end all.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 11, 2007 06:10 AM
read mandal as mental commission. just because Mandal said so does not men its true. Would you believe what ever hitler said. Tell me something substantial. how many commissions have come and gone? How many are we following. We only follow what is suitable to us isnt it? Because it recommended free everything we take that? If mandal had said otherwise and some other commission has said free life we would be following that. Come on Dinesh thats not an argument. Think for yourself if this is th right approach. You are running out of points hence you are hiding behind a commission which was wrong in the first place.
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 11, 2007 06:11 AM
Also you have not answered my question yet What categorizes one as backward What is the criteria?
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 11, 2007 04:07 PM
you are comparing bp mandal with hitler,cant u still get it?u are groping in the darkness which is self created,u dont realise the gravity of ur situation. just one point bp mandal used,any caste which has more than 50 % of its population having to walk more than half a kilometre for deinking water. next,u will tell,mandal is pol pot.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 11, 2007 08:42 PM
Ware wah Calling a pig a pig got my message to be reported. Who ever reported knows I am telling the truth and the truth my friends did hurt them. PS the person who reported must have been an ardent fan of the PIG
RE:RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 11, 2007 10:43 PM
sriram,my conscience is clear,i dont hate anybody,neither will i call anyone a pig,u r losing ur marbles,sriram.i sincerely plead with u to get out of ur selfinflicted situation. i answered ur question,do u have any other question? i again inform u that never have i uttered a word of hate in this discussion.i might have expressed frustration but never hate. i have to be so careful with u,u r debating for debating sake and criticising for criticising sake,visit a temple tomorrow and pray that u r rid of ur hate. if u had watched the assembly session today,u will begin to know about the greatness of kalaignar. shame on u for using foul language. truth will triumph.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 11, 2007 10:26 PM
very convenient Mr Dinesh. If you did not see it you missed the part where I called MK a PIG for wasting money on some 55 years of something as though achieved something. he could have better used that for the development for the state by starting better projects.
FYI Any sane person will be frustrated with caste supporting hate mongers like you.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 11, 2007 11:10 PM
Now I got it You are a fan of kalaingar. Tell me something How is it right that he as 3 wives? How is it possible that a person who by his own admission was from a poor family has amassed so much of wealth? You guys are hypocrites. He is so much against Hindus and a self professed Aethist but he will use the yellow shawl because an astrologer has said so. Wow we all should admire such a double standard person. Calling spade a spade will take some guts to do. You dont seem have that so stop advising me about ethics. Look at yourself first before you tell me. I am not asking for reservation based on caste you do. I am asking for equality for all and you dont so just think who is right and who is wrong.
Also I have better things in life to do than to hear to a pig talk in a zoo.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 12, 2007 12:42 AM
i think i have answered ur question.if u want to know more about mandals criteria,u can see it on the web. tamilnadu is among the top three states in india in every indicator,social and economic.that is a fact.u will come up with some inanity now.surely.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 12, 2007 10:24 PM
no point in talking to a person who refuses to see the reality in India. Good luck for a free everything life for you and your generations and congrats on taking the country towards destruction.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 11, 2007 11:25 PM
this entire thread began with me asking,'why are u guys resorting to personal attacks and why are u stooping to such depths?'. and u r back to that,resorting to personal attacks. i have to pray for ur welfare,sriram. u r stuck in ur hate.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 12, 2007 01:13 AM
u are acting ignorant when it suits u,i told u about the 9 th schedule. how r brahmins and uppercastes being victimised? sunnis are being victimised in iraq. bosnians were victimised in yugoslavia. tutsis were victimised in rwanda. indians were victimised in uganda. brahmins who constitute 3 % of the population have 31 % seats available for them. brahmins can own property. brahmins can spew venom on online forums. brahmins can move freely in public. brahmins can apply for any job anywhere. brahmins can take a house for rent anywhere. brahmins can express their talents freely anywhere. brahmins are not untouchable. brahmins can be priests in temples. brahmins are victimised only in the mind of sriram vanamamlai
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 12, 2007 12:59 AM
If that is the case then do you think TN is following Supreme courts order on reservation? The ruling says not more than 50% We have 69% Your argument for following the constitution goes for a toss.
Why are Brahmins and upper castes being victimized? Why is development of the whole nation being stone walled with lack of merit?
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 12, 2007 12:23 AM
Now look who is frustrated. It became personal because the so called leaders are leading us down the wrong path. Some one has to ask the questions. I am asking it You are the one who started supporting such double standard people. By the way you still have not justified the cause for caste based reservation. Which you cannot and will not.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 08:01 PM
Doesnt charity begin at home. You must be a good person to preach. If you are evil then you will preach evil like Periyar. If you clearly analyze his writings he has been the most biased human being. As they say in "tamil Sathan vedam oduthu"
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 08:20 PM
a majority of the people seem to feel that he has achieved something,right? or do u dispute that?
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 08:37 PM
whatevers happened has happened,u guys were in the spotlight.but there was no witchhunt and u have full rights as a citize.some of ur reactions would be an exact match for people driven out of uganda by idi amin. by still not accepting reality,u guys risk antagonising unbiased people by the extremity of ur views.u r creating the rift.a majority s got no ill will or no ill feeling.
RE:RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 08:42 PM
whats this with 'eye for an eye'. hinduism has been known to possess unacceptable things .right from buddhas time people have been reforming buddhism. periyar confronted a pathetic state and he made an allout attack on it. the gains are there in front of us. no ones belittling brahmins,but u guys are belittling his achievements.
RE:RE:RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 08:45 PM
then he should have attacked Hinduism on the whole. Why Brahmins alone. Are we alone Hindus and rest are not thats a pathetic thought because he cannot go against the masses
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 08:49 PM
We are not belittling his achievements. I am questioning what is his achievement apart from creating a hatred against brahmins
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 08:56 PM
And Dinesh You seem to go in hibernation when I post some good points which I did earlier this week. You dont seem to have an answer for that that shows that What i talking is at least not non sense. At the end of the day I am happy that I have had a healthy discussion with a friend. Hope you dont mind that.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 09:05 PM
i was having dinner.brahmins are the scriptural authority .the resistance would have been the most from the brahmins and it would have been powerful resistance as influential positions were the monopoly of the brahmins. the more the resistance,the more his methods would have hardened.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 09:12 PM
he lived in a period of change all over the world.he visited russia and saw the russian communism.he is credited to have predicted its fall.gandhiji fought against untouchability with his spiritual weight behind him.periyar got the work done on the ground.
RE:[object]
by shekar on May 04, 2007 09:58 PM
gandhiji never fought for untouchables, he fought against untouchables,please go though the book what gandhi and congress have done to untouchables by babasaheb ambedkar.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 10:01 PM
that is another big argument,gandhi was the greatest spiritualist but practically his views did not matter.but it cannot be said that gandhi had an ulterior motive.it was just impractical .
RE:RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 10:45 PM
BTW the other misconception that Brahmins kept the scriptures to themselves is a false belief. In one of the slokas in Vishnu Sahasranama when it mentions the fruits of chanting this says the good things for the 4 different communities. Please note that i am not mentioning caste here.
Which in itself is one of the proofs that its been totally misinterpeted during later stages and the Rulers of India at various stages made use of this to gain popularity.
If you read Kannadasan's "Pannirenu aandu vanavasam" you will know the different misdeeds and mischiefs of Periyar.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 11:04 PM
In the name of equality what is happening now pure emotional blackmailing.If anyone thinks thats an easy way to live then its a shame that we have many sadist minded people among us.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 11:19 PM
i will read that book,there is no emotional blackmailing,if at all there is ,it is from the upper castes,raising a hue and cry over reservations which are constitutionally mandated and being implemented by a democracy and in a democracy.there can be non hysterical reactions which will be beneficial. but hysterical and racial kinds of comments on rediff and other forums and on the streets will only serve to make the rift bigger.things are getting more polarised not because of the reservations but because of the extreme reaction to it by the upper castes.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 11:29 PM
Well I am not for racial comments in the first place. But no one has come up with an answer to my question yet.
Agreed calling a DALIT a dalit is implying caste based name. Does not the same rule hold when they call a Brahmin as a Brahmin? Why this double standards? Coming to reservations. If you say its constinutionally mandated then how come when in the initial Constitution it was mandated for 10 years its still there? Does that say something about selfishness on part of the other castes and the politicians. Does that not create more hate by saying the same old story of you were oppressed so you need this. Does that not make the younger generation from other communities take the easy way out when it comes to education? How is it really helping people. Its only creating a mindset that cut off marks is enough rest the reservation will take care. When the same guy comes out he will still think of easy ways to make money by abusing his power taking bribes etc. Is that what you want for future India. Dont you want to imbibe hard work and fighting qualities for the future generation
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 11:48 PM
dalits r being persecuted today.they still face violence.brahmins might be getting an abusive nomenclature but neither are they socially backward nor are they educationally backward.i accept that using an abusive term is not right. when i grew up,our group consisted of many brahmins,never ever was there any feeling that the brahmin was an outsider.but the sc s still face problems of racially motivated comments that hurt deep,it hits at the dignity.but the abuse u refer to does not have the same effect.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 11:56 PM
that guy is telling the ruling elite in india is marxist? reservation was first implemented by the raja of kolhapur,in tamilnadu,various great personalities from pitty theagoroyar,pt subbaroyan,dr nair fought for reservations.that guy is making it look like the british granted reservations to split the castes
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 12:01 AM
total falsehood is what that guy is resorting to. a person because he says he belongs to an upper cast doesnt make his social and educational reality fly away.there was a debate in parliament today about insurance for the unorganized labour.the numbers quoted were 30 crore people.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 12:09 AM
Do you also know this stats that 70% of the So called UCs do not pursue education after matric? What is the govt doing for them? Who is fighting for them? Ah who cares right they only constitute 13% of the population? Your ideas and my ideas differ here. i am saying it should be implemented in way every needy person gets it irrespective of the caste at a grass root level. Higher education can be based on economic conditions but at schools identify the socially backward people and give them training and coaching etc to make them more competitive at the higher education level. That way every one can be educated and successful.
You still have not answered my question who is to be blamed for discrimination against SCs in todays world? Your silence on that kind of says who is responsible.
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 12:13 AM
Here is a famous quote from BernardShaw "Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history that man can never learn anything from history." which is true for today. Agreed there were discrimination in our past But are we eradicating it today. No we are creating more rift by way of this caste base categorization
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 12:18 AM
it is the obc s in tamilnadu that r oppressing the sc s.in the north, it is the uc s.reservation for obc s was on the presumption that they were socially and educationally backward. are u refuting the view that the caste system is the sanction for the oppression of the sc s. who is the symbol of that system?isnt that a mindset?how do u break a mindset?by targetting the symbols.as roso says,how do u get the simple masses to drastically change.he did not organise destruction of temples right? uve said the mutts were just part of the people.when the rulers(periyar) does it,u oppose it?
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 12:27 AM
Another thing which no one really asks is that We got independence 60 years back. Why the reservations for OBCs now? Do you mean to say that the Govt pushed them from being moderately backward to very backward. Then whose problem is that is that not the mindset of the govt. Who was rules at that time is that the UCs. If not why always leave the UCs out are they privy to all things which these people are not. Come on man grow up think think hard there is all kinds of people spread all over the country thats teh beauty of our country. If that is the case then why help one group alone just because they form a majority. I was thinking you have a rational thinking. I am sorry to say you proved me wrong. You turned out to be a hypocrite too.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 12:42 AM
your political knowledge is zero.reservations for obc s were mandated in the constitution.the first ncbc report submitted 63,not implemented.second ncbc report submitted 79 ,not implemented.90 vp singh implements it.93 final judgement.07 quota for cei s.
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 12:15 AM
where do you get this impression that all upper castes are wealthy. Dont you know there are many Upper caste laborers too? The #s may be small when compared to others thats because UCs themselves are very small in # s in the whole society.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 11:50 PM
Agreed But are the SC being persecuted by Brahmins of today. No i dont think so when they themselves are less in number how can they. Then vent your anger against the group that does that. You will find that it will be an OBC or BC and you are fighting for more reservations for them is that not an irony?
RE:personal attacks
by Pathur Swaminathan on May 05, 2007 12:28 AM
Dinesh,
First of all how much do you spend for the causes of the Dalits, whose cause you are championing, as they are the poor underpriviledged, both in terms of time and money. Why am I asking you this question? Because I spend time and money towards their betterment, as I do towards the poorest of other castes. Poor people belong to one class of people, the underpriviledged, period. Trying to create the bogey of the Brahmin to create social hatred is not going to help and has not helped -- after nearly 60 years of the Brahmin being marginalized what is the status of the Dalit? Who is to blame today for this status quo, the Brahmin?!?! It is the same "Dravida" and "Rationalistic" ideology that has destroyed the foundations of the Hindus, and has accelerated these days. While all Hindus are squabbling over who did what when, the aetheists, the marxists, christists, islamists are laughing their way to the bank!! If you are rational, set aside your biases and read Kavingar Kannadasan's works, especially the ones of his later years to be enlightened. Periyar was not rich, he bacame rich! He was given his weight in gold for his birthday 60th or 80th, I don't remember now.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 12:38 AM
periyar did not belong to a rich family? dravidian ideology is wrecking hinduism.in evry state other than tn,what ideology is wrecking hinduism? classic question.what do u do?are we debating that? it is the caste system that is being debated,not the brahmin.it is u that makes that assumption.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 12:49 AM
but he has point that Underprivileged are there in all the communities. There are different ways to put your point across support the underpriviliged.. What is appalling is that why are the privileged using that too? Doesn't Supreme court mean anything at all? They (Supreme court) says leave the creamy layer out for reservations. Why is that not being done. is that not against constitution? Leave the caste based thing out of education it will help people to forget this in the future. If this is being implemented it still creates a further rift among people especially the younger generations. I am totally against it.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 12:52 AM
hey sriram,watch the case being conducted,the govt has to reply and convince the supreme court.the govt has replied,do u know about that?
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 12:54 AM
No not this case this is for OBC even other wise there is a supreme court ruling to keep the Creamy layer out. Secondly there is another stating that there should not be more than 50% reservations at any given time. Only in TN we have 69% is that not unconstitutional?
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:02 AM
that is why it has been inserted in the ninth schedule,which is constitutionally valid. like the article u wanted me to read,u reduce democracy to a very simple thing,these guys r the majority,so they do this,they do that. democracy is alive and kicking,it does not have a predefined course.it has its own course.the people have control over that.there r various checks and balances.only under democracy could the sc s ever dreamt of attaining power.
what do u say about the points raised in this article,cant u see logic? these are real sources,not articles on rediff. also read the article in frontline on the obc issue.
http://www.ncbc.nic.in/
visit this site,u will know what government is,how the rules are made.see every page,not just the home page. u ve got to have some knowledge about government and democracy. u cant put ur head into the ground and shake ur legs.i also suggesr u watch loksabha tv to get some idea .
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 12:58 AM
sriram,reservation is mandated in the constitution for socially and educationally backward communities,not economically backward communities.there are other govt programmes to alleviate poverty. anybody can join a school anywhere. as for creamy layer,it is not about economically forward,but socially and educationally backward. the left has given a suggestion about the creamy layer,do u know that? i dont know ur age,but todays youth are ignorant about the pokitical process,its a fashion to criticise the govt,youth think that is participative democracy.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:06 AM
the obc s are between 450 and 500 million people .the sc s and st s are about 250 million people. sc and st have been getting 22%reservation since independence . how many have benefited to have become creamy layer?
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 01:03 AM
I have seen those articles what they conveniently not say is that what is being done for the underprivileged who are still like that be it any caste. You have been saying the same article over and over for the past few days. Have you read Arun Shourie's Falling over Backwards? Do you know Nehru in later part of his tenure was opposed to caste based reservations because he found the harm it could do to us. I am not a great Nehru fan by the way.People will have different opinions and stats we as rational people should think and see the right and wrong. Now this shows who is having their head in the ground and shaking their legs. :Watching the loksabha functioning is not going to help when they function that i. Mostly there is fighting going on. Does it not say something that everyone is for this in the loksabha means something fishy to you when they fight about everything else? you please remove your head from the groung beofre pointing your fingers at me. the the ncbc.nic again does not present the correct picture and the ground reality. Ground reality is not a bunch of articles and loksabha tv and govt websotes. Please know that first.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:09 AM
so ground reality is to be done by u and me?we will take a bike and visit every village in our country?
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:13 AM
ok sriram,i will read arun shourie and kannadasan.u watch loksabhatv. where do u live? im in chennai. good night
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:15 AM
nehru was against reservations based on caste,but they could not evolve any other method to determine backwardness. so finally they came back to caste based. nehru was the greatest person,even greater than gandhi,he ruled us for 14 years,steering us to where we r today.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 05, 2007 01:31 AM
It is naive to think that they could not think of another way. They did not want to because it will affect their electoral chances.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:38 AM
how do u say it was naive,they could not arrive at any other method,even kamaraj was against castebased reservations,infact the janata party govt which was supported by the jan sangh appointed mandal.it was not implemented by subsequent indira gandhi and rajiv gandhi govt. see todays hindu editorial about the sociologist who was behind mandals research,he was a tambram.also see todays hindu thisdaythatage about kamarjs feelings.but they had to find a method to identify backward classes becos consttitution asks them,from 63 when 1st ncbc was prepare ,till 79,they could not find a method,so 2nd ncbc ie mandal was appointed
RE:personal attacks
by Pathur Swaminathan on May 05, 2007 01:19 AM
Dinesh,
The context is Periyar the movie, which showcases his "achievements". The debate is in this context -- the alternate point of view is that he only managed to get richer (let us for simplicity sake assume he was rich) and gain "Periyar" status by hate mongering and allowed his successors like MK and the DK idealogue also gain substantial wealth, based on the same hate mongering. Since EVR's sphere of debauchery was within TN, let us take this as our case study. The key question is, when this ideology of hate has been in total power for nearly 60 years, why has not the position of the Dalits changed (eveng calling a section as Dalit is derogatory, they should simply be called the underprivilegded)? Caste has nothing to do with thier backwardness, it is the corrupt and unscroupulous politicians who are to blame. Why did not the Govt. provide free education to all in primary levels? Do you know the enrollment of wards in rural TN? Do you know how many teachers attend classes regularly in these rural schools? Keeping people poor means vote bank, period, that is what the likes of EVR and MK want. The Brahmin who is less that 3% of the population of TN is nothing more than a bogey, knowing fully well that they can be easily exploited.
I submit that whoever propagates this absurd "Priyar" line is part of the aetheist, commie, christist, mullar axis of evil that is benefitting from these mindless squabbles.
The fact is this is a waste of public money when that could have benefitted several social schemes. This movie is nothing more than cheap propaganda at social cost to further vested interests. A moron who was a bigot is being projected as a saviour when 60% of the population does not have the basic needs -- only a "rational" mind can justify this atrocity!!
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:26 AM
u put 2 points. the status of the scheduled communities is unchanged since independence. periyar did not contribute anything at all to anything at all. ur arguments can be systematically demolished,but i cite just 2 points. the sc s r having a political leader in tn today who is empowering them.in ur ground work,u might have come across such real cases of real life in everyday reality. and the second point is the next chief minister of uttar pradesh reveres periyar.
RE:personal attacks
by Pathur Swaminathan on May 05, 2007 01:44 AM
Please don't waste your time even trying to "systematically" demolish my arguments. Simply answer one quesion (which you have failed to address): A CM from the underprivileged party has been at the helm of affairs with an institutional support of the local legislative assembly for most of the time in TN. Then why are the underprivieleged still the underprivileged -- that is some empowerment!! Vaiko alleged that that MK's assets are over 60,000 crores in the elections, just imagine how that money was made and how that can benefit the poor that you are allegedly championing! Secondly wrt the "next CM of UP's" awe of EVR naicker, GOD help UP!
RE:RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:49 AM
hey ,u want maggi 2 minute noodles. u r joking ,arent u? IN EVERY INDICATOR,TN HAS SHOWN DEVELOPMENT. do u understand that? the nss conducts sample surveys,see its results. dont fool around societal change is an ongoing process.the brahmins in up are mature enough to have joined forces with the bsp. 104 candidates out of the 403 of the bsp are brahmins.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 05, 2007 01:52 AM
tamilnadu is a well administered state,the bureaucracy at every level is intelligent and proactive. ur dislike of periyar has clouded ur vision and ur thoughts and consequently,u are unable to give credit where it is due. it is a fools paradise. happy dreaming good night.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 06, 2007 06:34 AM
dinesh your continuing ignorance makes me feel that your statement is true that is Tamin nadu is la fools paradise is true. Otherwise how can you turn a blind eye to the corruption happening. Do you call that development You must be joking. Where did MK and all politicians have amassed so much property? R u naive now are r u trying to prove your point by being a fool? I really dont know. I am sorry for the personal comment. But you can only awake people who are sleeping. You are pretending so there is no point in talking with you who refuses to see the reality. All the development has been in Private sector. Please dont confuse that with Govt. That will be very naive.
RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 06, 2007 07:37 PM
sriram,it s u thats naive.take a look at politicians all around the world.whats dick cheney doing,whats george bush doing.they are taking their country into war because they have a personal stake in various businesses.
i meant u guys are in a fools paradise,maybe i chose a wrong terminology.but the fact is u guys are in denial mode.if u cant see that tamilnadu is a well administered state,its because uver got a blinkered view. ure mixing up things to arrive at a contrived result. arandavan kannukku irundathellam paeyi. theres no way u can see the positives when u r in such a sorry state
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 06, 2007 09:05 PM
What is positive in calling yourself backward? If you thinkthat is positive then GOD HELP YOU. When the whole world is looking to move forward. we are looking back by bringing this reservatios on caste basis? Is that right you ask yourself? If you think reservations has brought so many positives then why cant you think how much it will bring . First of all you have not been on the other side that is not having reservations in a society on caste basis. you people cannot answer many of the genuine queries raised by me and others in this forum and you guys speaking refuse to see every angle. Kuthiraiu kadivalam potta mathiri. This shows your selfish ttitude of people for reservatiosn because it only benefits certain group of people. What I have proposed is for the whole society still you say this? I have no words to say to people who are ignorant of the facts what is good and what is bad for the society in the long run.
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 07, 2007 06:52 PM
When you are pointing fingers at me dont forget that you have four fingers pointing at yourself that shows who is right and who is wrong. there is no point to talking to a castist mindset people like you. As I said before you do not have any rational thinking. Otherwise you will have been answering my questions. That shows you agree but you do not want to accept because it will deny the free life you are leading now. Bravo Dinesh thanks for opening my eyes that you too are like that. Have a nice free life.
RE:RE:personal attacks
by shekar on May 04, 2007 09:55 PM
dear dinesh, gandhi never fought for untouchables he behaved as thought fought ,u go through the book what gandhi and congress have done to untouchables by babasaheb ambedkar.
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 09:24 PM
it is of course brahmanism,defended by the brahmins.there is an analogy with iraq today.there is a civil war going on in iraq today.why doesnt the highest clergy in iran issue a call that it is against killing for political power.why will it issue a call which wont have effect on the ground.and risk a dent on its image. similarly,it can be argued that brahmins should have corrected the situation in hinduism.the heads of mutts could have issued a call against untouchability in the 1500 s.why wasnt it done? that is where periyar was a godsend.he did not brook any bullshit.he took the bull by the horns.it can be argued that only in tamilnadu could he have done it because the people are always open.but the resonance was felt in kerala and in the north.
RE:RE:personal attacks
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 09:37 PM
even today,there is no attempt by the powers that be to attempt a genuine reform of hinduism. conversions are going on.but instead of focussing on the root causes,missionaries are being attacked.various muttheads are close to the bjp.they r happy with a share of the power.but there is no genuine attempt to issue a call to set right the situation.the rss is making some political stunts.even in tamilnadu here,the muttheads are embroiled in controversy
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 10:30 PM
Your comparison is pure BS. never in Hinduism history did the heads of mutts say that you go and kill others if they dont follow the rules of Hinduism. That happens in Islam in the name of Allah. Secondly Did you read the article I had given earlier http://ia.rediff.com/money/2007/apr/24guest.htm. Do know that caste system was there only in four catgories. Now only one of the 4 is still going by the same name. How come others have several different names? Did you think why was that? Who caused it and what is the motive? Your thinking is not only naive but immature too. You are talking about castism is it only in Hinduism then why do we have dalit Christians? What is the answer for that? See if you keep saying Brahmins are the reason for evil then you are ignorant an misguided. Who was ruling us in the 1500s then why did the kings not take any action in protecting the people then? brahmins were mere part of the society not rulers/ When your own deserted you, You seem to point the fingers on a group which was a mere part of the society. Is that logical reasoning. Mutt heads cannot bring about a radical society because they merely are spiritual leaders not communal leaders. I am against them entering politics too. Its the real rulers who should do that they failed then question them. Now give me an example of a leader who did that?
RE:[object]
by dinesh kumar on May 04, 2007 11:25 PM
either u r suggesting that untouchability did not exist in the period before 1500 or u r telling that brahmins were not considered as authorities on scripture before 1500? say kapaleeswarar temple,it would have been the brahmins as priests there in 1300.and the kanchi mutt would have existed then with the same prestige right?
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 09:09 PM
I am not talking about hibernation just this time alone Even the other day you seem to have chosen not to reply. Education is something which should be open I agree. But the author says he was against brahminism and you say he is against brahmins so which is true?
RE:personal attacks
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 08:33 PM
Yes I do dispute that because that majority has had leaders like MK for whom cheating people and deceiving is an easy way of life. I can also tell you why that happened. Thats because they made use of the ignorance of the people by just showing a particular community and saying that they were responsible for their miseries where as as a society everyone is responsible. You may dispute the fact I have mentioned about the society. But look at it with this example. We sure know that the whole of pakistan is not against India but when something happens we blame the whole country.Remember Bharatiyar he also fought against untouchability and he was from a UC. Se reformers come and go but you should not point your fingers at a particular group. Educate them erase ignorance among all people then you can say you are a reformer. Just blaming one to gain mass support is not the way to go. It will leave a fractured society. An Eye for an Eye makes the whole world blind. Dont you know that?
RE:personal attacks
by Sheebha Antonio on May 14, 2007 01:51 PM
WOW!!! still going on....Well Dinesh as for your question "do u think it is a good thing that the obcs are becoming more brahminized? " -NOOOOO...Its a very bad thing...they are isolating their communities from others....especially the communties in southern Tamil Nadu.
As for the History...no I havnt seen them...but based on ur comments on the discussion...
Q1: Reservations needs to be eliminated slowly from any part of the Govt system? YES or NO? Dont u think at one point of time, everyone shud be treated equal, be it education or life???
Q2: If Tamil Nadu is one among top 3, social, economic...etc...Doesnt it actually mean, every one have equality in the standard of eduction? then why reservations???
Ok..Maybe not everyone....jus a example 2 boys studying in top private schools in Chennai, one SC & other a FC. If the SC boy is able to afford such an education standard, its bcos his dad or mom wud have been benefitted from reservation. Now his son has the facility to go for a very good education. But when getting a seat in Engineering or medical, he continues to use his quota. Is this justice???
I have seen a SC student getting into JIPMER medical with -ve marks, jus bcos of quota... imagine the plight of the patients...
And 3% of brahmins for 31% of seats???? Boss?? what about the other FC's??? they are also competing in the same 31%...
Dr Ambedkar himself when pronouncing the reservations said, it should last for only 10 yrs. But 60 yrs down the lane, we still haven't eliminated it.
I accept Reservation did good things...when backward were really backward...underprvilaged were really underprevilaged... But is it applicable today??? If you think YES...tell me how long are we supposed to continue with this fate??? what shud happen or what shud be done to make everyone equal...
It clearly shows how great rediff works without any domination."Periyar", the man who stood against the caste-based system in India. He is a rationalist. If u say something, u should show the cause and effect. That is what Science is all about. Science keeps on growing by redefining the rules where as in this world 90/100 people have to be enlightened with rational thoughts."Periyar" is the one after "Buddha" who attacked the root of ignorance and opened the way of wisdom to each and every people. He never cheated anybody. He died at the age of 95. Even 5 days before he died, he was addressing in the meeting. He was awakening the people against the people who are cheating. Simply he is rational.
RE:Hatsoff to Rediff
by greatrr on May 05, 2007 12:08 AM
what an insult to lord buddha!! A comparison between god in human form and a glofified perverted street thug.
RE:Hatsoff to Rediff
by Mani on May 07, 2007 11:47 AM
I did not know that Buddha called himself as Lord.I suggest u to read and understand the "Buddhism" and "Periyarism" before commenting on here.If u can see my previous commet again carefully, i did not compare them...i just told the truth...what happened in the last 2500 years..
RE:Hatsoff to Rediff
by greatrr on May 14, 2007 01:44 AM
Thanks for a suggestion. You might have seen all the stuff happened in 2500 years.. & you are talking the truth?? How old are you btw??
RE:Shiva
by on May 04, 2007 05:17 PM
It clearly shows how great rediff works without any domination."Periyar", the man who stood against the caste-based system in India. He is a rationalist. If u say something, u should show the "cause and effect%u201D. That%u2019s what Science is all about. Science keeps on growing by redefining the rules where as in this world 90/100 people have to be enlightened with rational thoughts."Periyar" is the one after "Buddha" who attacked the root of ignorance and opened the way of wisdom to each and every people. He never cheated anybody. He died at the age of 95. Even 5 days before he died, he was addressing in the meeting. He was awaking the people against the people who are cheating. Simply he is rational. Who are against him are irrational.
RE:Shiva
by eagle on May 04, 2007 06:33 PM
Even reading your pea brained comment is equally corrupting to any human being.
Did you do a research on Periyar? or atleast did you see him in a positive light first before finding faults.
You dumb headed creature. who just reads so other stupid guys understudied biased writing and comment on rediff.
The movie is a depiction of what he was as a character. Not to look. Who cares if he was short.
He did drive against castism which the brahminism thrives on. He was not against the brahmins. Never was he against human being. But against selfish "beings" who do not accept another human being as equal.
LEarn from his life. The good things. He was not kicked out of congress he left congress coz congress was supporting castism. Idiot!
We should be able to report the whole Rediff article for abuse.. this periar one is a useless article.. he was anti brahmin and I dont know how Rediff can encourage this with a strong brahmin senior management
RE:[object]
by prabhuraj Kalimuthu on May 08, 2007 09:49 AM
You filthy humanbeing.."strong brahmin senior management"...wat a filthy words..this is what heppening allover india..grow up
RE:RE:Periar
by ruzo on May 05, 2007 12:01 AM
Periyar means "The Great One" . That aside, why do you laugh at yourself? If you can please let us know what is so funny about you, then we can all join in laughing at you
RE:RE:RE:Periar
by greatrr on May 05, 2007 12:10 AM
Wondering who called him periyar - he is periyar in perverted attitude, periyar in violence & hatred against one community.
the comments by certain people attacking periyar hurt the feelings of all who revere periyar.people indulging in this behaviour have also been seen to use foul language and arrogance.
It is a good thing to give the option to comment by all the readers. But I feel that there is a need to filter/edit before these comments are posted on the website, not afterwards. Sometimes the readers are getting highly emotional and attacking other readers personally which will never do any good. The whole purpose of sharing mature and sensible thoughts is getting lost in this war of the words. I also feel the image of the website is getting damaged because of this.
Path-breaking is really huge word for this movie. Next time i see this reviewer's article, I know I would avoid it like a plague. Rediff should really interview their reviewers...
