1. It explicitly creates irrational hierarchy among Indians which is against Article 14 2. Parents covertly teach their children to coerce other children as per the above hierarchies.
RE:Hinduism is the root of all evil in India.
by jagadisan krishnamoorthy on May 05, 2007 05:19 PM Permalink
It is alright at that time that the Brahmins with only 3% population were occupying large no of posts. It was because at that time the educated were the Brahmins. Why did the politician include the great so called luminaries not advocate that all should get education irrespective of caste and give reservations strictly for 10 years or one generation of education. Ambedkar wanted that only by giving reservations only for 10 years. It was only politics of the later years which used it for vote bank. You cannot say that in order to reverse the injustice perpetrated for centuries by the upper castes, we have to extend reservation for thousand years. It is foolish and ill conceived vision of the present politicians who are selfish to the core. India will reap the results of this malignancy in politics soon. jagadisan
Here are some key points which proponents of reservation very convinently forget and make a mokery of reservation and affirmative action.
1>> Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar the champion of backword classes had very clearly said in the constitution that the reservation policy be only followed for 10 years and then it be discontinued. But since it became a case of "Who will bell the cat" , it has been extended so many times last 60 years.
2>> When Reservation for SC, ST, BC's were proposed it was directly related to untouchability and untouchables. Hence reservations were given to communities of SC, ST and BS's. Due to the political pressure of TN politicians a totally new OBC class was invented. There was no mention of OBC's in the constitution , it was a totally new invention. Several affulent and agri rich communities were brought under the OBC classes when convinently forgeting OBC's were never untouchables and Dalits.
3>> All the ire of reservations was directed against the caste system in Hinduism. Then how was the reservations extended to Buddhists, Christians and Muslims..?? When did Christinity , Buddisim and Islam start to have castes system??? what is a dalit christian ??? if he is a christian then how can he be a dalit ?? Isnt someone missing or convinently forgetting the meaning of being a christian ???
4>>If you take the number of elected representatives in India , The corporators , The MLA's , The MP's , the ministers and the list of Chief Misters. You will nowhere find any Brahmins now. Infact you will find Either the caste upper castes like Khastriyas, Marathas, Yadavs, OBC's in these top posts. Even Police or government officers you hardly see any Brahmins nowdays. Populationwise Brahmins do not even have the 3 % mark, then where is the need of the anti Brahmin movement??? How or where do the "opress" someone to vent out the crocodile tears ??
5>> In areas of Business, Trade , Commerce, Entrepreneurship and Self Employment the Gujrathi, Jain, Marwadi, Agrawal, Bania, Sikh, Punjabi and Sindhi communities rule the roost. They with their family business type of structure, hard work and dedication run and own most of the small and medium business in the country and infact controll a large part of the ecconomy. Also their population also does exceed in anyways the 5 to 8 % mark. Most of the employment is also generated by them and their businesses. So isnt someone totally overlooking something ???
Tommorrow someone can say why is this community rich and why does this commmunity own all the businesses if he sees the caste wise ecconomic trends.
6>>I think we need to abolish reservations totally in all sectors. It would serve better if we exclude the caste and sub caste column totally in our birth certificates and School certificates. So no one knows his caste and no one writes his caste also. when there is no official record keeping of castes significane of castes and religion will cease to exist and it will be a personal affair and religion will be a personal prerogrative.
Otherwise its Brahmins then it will be the Kshatriyaas and Marathas, then it will be the other upper castes, then it will be the OBC's.
Turning a majority against a targetted minority can occur with any caste and community, so others Need NOT keep their eyes shut and bask in oblivion.
Today its Brahmins, tommorrow it will be somebody else too.
RE:Some key points which proponents of reservations very convinently forget.
by Raju Puducode on May 04, 2007 04:02 AM Permalink
It is good to discuss the good & bad in our country. But the urgent need is to wake up & defend our institutions like temples built over thousands of years by the sages & saints of India. They are under mortal attack by secularists. HELP preserve them by signing the petition:
Dear Mr. Kris, I do not support any discrimination. Being called low caste etc. is horrible. I give you that some of the practices of Brahmins were unforgivable. It was not just Brahmins who practiced the discrimination, but it was Brahmins who fought against it. You are attacking Brahmin because he cannot do much about it. Brahmins took the leadership to fight for independence, which allowed you to come to this stage. You think Ambedkar put the reservation policy?-there was no Brahmin in 40s who did not support it. The way it is misused today-no sane individual can support it. We cannot go back to Ramayana day and change the past. You cannot create a morbid present and disgusting future to change something you speculate. While you are so vehement against Brahmins ill treating others, where is this indignation against Muslims who eliminated millions of Hindus from their home and carved Pakistan?. Where is your indignation for the atrocities committed against Hindus in Pakistan, Kahsmir and Bangladesh recently let alone unspeakable ones during Mogul era. You do not taking movies about it, because there is consequence. What ever you may attribute to them, they preserved art, music and education in India. No God in Hindu mythology is a Brahmin. What about other so called higher castes who probably kicked you. This Nayakar is higher than you and treated you like a pig. Brahmin did not do that. Your wish that Brahmins are to become low caste crooks. They are being treated like that any way. What did the country gain? what did you personally gain by implementing which you think happened and trying to create something like it again?. Were you living 1000 years ago?. You a speculate a lot. The greatest literature preserved by Brhamins of Valmiki, Vyasa, Kalidasa and many Upanishads were not created by Brahmins alone. But we have it because of Brahmins and they deserve respect for it. Who ever is educated and preserved the knowledge was called a Brahmin and wererespected. If I respect you, it is because of your education not because you are a Bhrahmin bashing idiot. After Brahmins who do you want to hate and live your life, Vysays?, Kshatriayas, then Reddys, then Mudiliyars, then Chettiyars-where do you want to end? You want British or Islamic rule back? You wrote- is anything incorrect in your writing? everything you wrote is incorrect and paving the way for a bleak future
RE:Kris
by shekar on May 03, 2007 11:36 PM Permalink
by going through vijaya buddhiraju it always reminds me of jagjeevan ram who always was against reservation when in congress party because congress used him as chamacha against ambedkar and jagjeevan ram image used to be very high because of his antireservation ,but this man always use to get elected from reserve seat,such are ur views,all downtrodden sections occupying good positions r because of reservation and in order to distinguish themselves from their untouchables they give such manuwadi views.
RE:Kris
by VIJAYA BUDDHIRAJU on May 04, 2007 08:18 AM Permalink
Shekar, You one more interesting thing. The Dalits those days were not as stupid and blind as todays ones who got benefits to go to higher positions. Instead of helping the downtroden communities and the country, they take movies of prejdiced immoral people and portray them as heros. Their Idol Ambedkar was defeated in his own reserved constitency. Our great first Prime minister brought him with his popularity.
RE:RE:RE:Kris
by shekar on May 05, 2007 09:22 AM Permalink
v.buddhiraju u r all manuwadi stooges,j j ram was biggest stooge that independence india produced ,he was utilised and when asked for power he was thrown in dust bin . TODAY no bahujan worth his salt remembers j.j ram,in uttarapradesh alone where he used to get elected is forgotten ,leave alone speeches not a page has been left by him,he was simply idiot and hippocrite.
RE:Kris
by shekar on May 04, 2007 12:51 PM Permalink
ms, buddhiraju entire world knows the character of nehru, need not comment on iconoclast as babsaheb.
RE:Kris
by shekar on May 04, 2007 12:32 PM Permalink
ms buddhiraju, once bahujan samaj starts developing ur nehrus and gandhis will be brought nacked all over the world ,dont worry it will happen within span of 25years.and next era will be dedicated to ambedkar and kanshiram.
RE:Kris
by Raju Puducode on May 04, 2007 04:03 AM Permalink
It is good to discuss the good & bad in our country. But the urgent need is to wake up & defend our institutions like temples built over thousands of years by the sages & saints of India. They are under mortal attack by secularists. HELP preserve them by signing the petition:
RE:Kris
by kris on May 04, 2007 01:47 PM Permalink
I am agreeing with you on the aspect of brahmins are not the only people who mistreated the others. But they are the center-stage in history and now also. go villages and see.
I also agree that they saved many old epics and vedas. But try to get the remaing things also. they destroyed many vedas/old epics which contains lot of knowledge and wisdom just make sure that they will never reach to other castes .(Its true and happened in many parts of india). after they claimed they done so that that these epics should not be go to odd hands/ill minded kings . but the real intentions are different. u know many years aadi sankaracharya has not been accepted by brahmins--- just for the reason he is extending the knowledge to commom man??.
What ever I had written is
1) To make the people understand the "OTHER" side of the coin - that even with extrordinary knowledge and wisdom how a community like Brahmins now in odd stage, because of the some mistakes (Even ravana has many good qualities, but punished for his bad quality). And i am not saying that other communities had not done any mistakes. But if u see our culture from ancient days - Brahmin is the center point - for education, administartion etc. Eventhough they have enjoyed such a fabulous positions, they done very little to the society. Why they are now reduced to this position??. Just because of their own mistakes - turning to materialism, adopting the lifestyles and habbits of other people (not all but many in number, ican say). I had a brahmin friend, their uncle is a very knowledgeable and he knows astrlogy and palmhistory as well. but whenever he goes to other places or relatives/friends places to fix marriage dates etc , he will not take a single rupee. He told me when i asked, once u r material may be money/wealth/ladies/bad habbits etc oriented u cant practice spirituality to full extent. Healso told that our people are now degraded because of their own faults - prefering material benefits/ no interest on spiritual knowledge/ being opportunistic etc. Once a Brahmin turns into a materialistic - how he can teach good for others, how he can be an ideal person, how he drive the people towards spirituality/ how he can still hold the respect??. He only told that as the other castes are kept in dark for centuries its affecting everybody today in india oneway or other. He is more interested in public service (not jobs), but he cant do because of the fear that he will be thrown out of the community/relatives. And also please dont be mis-understood, I donthave any specific hatredness towards Brahmins, as i have brahmin friends both having some good and bad qualities)
2) I am from FC, not SC/ST/OBC. But when I see deeply into their lifestyles of low caste, Its not only the financial aspect. But they are socially also suppressed. Thats why now they are so much of angry on FCs. Even I did not got any seat in govt colleges. I too deeply felt many times that reservation must be on the basis of economic level not on caste basis.
But for last 20/30 years we are facing these problems. But what about the dalits and others. Just tell me onething, whats the price u can pay to them for treating them as untouchables/distancing them from education etc done by our ancestors??. In past we have good social and financial positions. u people enjoyed it, but at the cost/effort/blood and sweat of the low caste people. Then no body of u have any complaints. now u feel the heat, u started crying. If u corrected at ealier days, I am sure that u might not be in this odd situation today. Thats why I had given the CHILD example. Can you do that??. Dont see the situation in cities. Go rural ares and assess the truth in the matter i written.
3) see the below link
http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm
Why a particular caste "working Sulabh Shauchalayas" is considering as something odd. why not they felt it if it is done by low caste people (they are doing it for centuries, but none of us has shown pity - instead we treated them badly). u people aspecially are averse to do any physical work. u wont cultivate, but u treat the farmer as untouchable, and u require is food. u dont care his blood/sweat he invested under sun/in rain to get the crop.
Now tell me is there any thing wrong an youngman who is child of such low catse people will have right impression on high caste people - who has tortured them for centuries?? (even though u r superior in knowledge). common man its a pity situation. u are knowledgable, but nobody is respecying u. u wont get respect by power or force or positions (because of these only u got respect in earlier days). even though u gets that is not true. A person will be respected,even if he is low in knowledge, when he is useful/adoptable and close the people and respect the people and make their lifes better. isn't it true??.
4) whenever some scientists in west, found/invented new things----our people says its already written in our vedas,epics etc. What brahmins have done for centuries by having such hugh tressure of knowledge. they distanced other castes from education, is it benefited them or the nation??.
5) I am not complaining that all brahmins are bad or cunning. But at the same time what they had done very good to the mankind, have the very unpardonable mistakes also. Having knowledge is good thing. but if its not usefull, whats the use. u have all knowledge which is not utilised for any others, then whats the use of having knowledge??. Hiding knowledge is sin. Making people live in dark is sin. Misleading others from education is sin. These are not crimes but sins, which will carry forwards to the generations. killing a person appears to be the great crime, more than that many soft-crimes/sins are there which will not appear as hard as killing. try to get ny point. I am not blaming, but asking u to get better insight in to the real matter.
Coorect me if iam wrong. But just throw stones as u dont like it. because these are real facts, whether u agree or not.
RE:Kris
by Rohith on May 15, 2007 01:00 PM Permalink
I don't know your intentions, but, i can certainly understand what you mean by saying that Brahmins are striving for materislism...you mean to say that they look for dakshinas in temples...i bet you are tamilian, following these stupid dravidian philosophies. I'm a normal human being, not yogi, who has left everything materialistic...i need money to run my family...i pay for watching cinemas, i pay for eating in a hotel...therefore, i will pay fo r a priest, who is praying on all our behalf...he is not running any charity...Can you read the in between lines... Even, i have friends, who in the back speak about the Brahmin priest taking money...but, i haven't found a single doing charity work...not even to their downtrodden community people...But, they are good at blame game By the way, do you know how much a Christian missionary-father gets for preaching and converting...you should tell me, because, the christ bandhavas are more in your state.
RE:Kris
by Vivekanand Venkataraman on May 16, 2007 07:06 PM Permalink
Materilaism... is never the case of a real Bhramin. You can just count a handful of Bhramins whom you can say have amassed wealth to great standards. They are in general people who are very self contented and tfy to live a very desciplined life. and again this is not dravidian Philosophy which we are talking about and Hindusim cannot actually be defined as a religion.. it is a way of living..
The Gita says that anyone can become a Bhramin and no one is bhramin by birth.. its his way of living and karmas which make him one...
RE:Kris
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 04, 2007 08:23 PM Permalink
First of all your understanding is wrong. Vedas are not the works of Brahmins alone. Do you know that In Hindu mythology devas are not considered brahmins. They have many architects and finciars etc. How come? Secondly Valmiki was a SC if you go by todays categorization. Brahmins merely maintained these works. You may be ignorant but please do not publish false information and create more hatred. If you cant do good atleast do do any bad to the society as a responsible person. You seem to be a pure HATE MONGER.
RE:Kris
by Paddu Iyer on May 06, 2007 02:51 AM Permalink
Ahh pick on something and use it to discredit the entire thing. As if you always open your mouth with correct facts.
He is quoting figures saying most of the doctors in those days were brahmins. Here is Mr. Periyar who was one of the wealthiest people who dropped out of school after 4th grade and was loitering about when he could have studied in any part of the world. He could have gone to London or Germany or anywhere to educate himself in whatever field he wanted. And he blames those who were economically poor but used education to better themselves. Both Periyar and Mr. Rajasekharan are cut from the same cloth of finding others to blame for their ills.
RE:quit harrassing brahmans in tn
by VIJAYA BUDDHIRAJU on May 04, 2007 08:22 AM Permalink
If there was apartheid, were only Brahmins to balme? These jerks are attacking them because they are economically weak and politically non-existenet. There is only solution to stop this tras-they have to form strong organizations and punish the trash makers as Muslims would.
None of the political parties can/will support you. Judiciary cannot support you (because Parliament decides "salaries" of Judges and not vice versa). 85% of Indians do not support you.
It's OUR Country, Not Yours. We take decisions here.
And our DECISION is: "We are NOT soliciting your merit."
RE:The Bitter Truth
by USN Kashyap on May 02, 2007 09:47 PM Permalink
`M' also can stand for mediocrity. Merit and mediocrity are mutual misnomers. Mediocrity is a misfortune. Misfortune is a multiplication of miserable. And so one can go on and on...
Yes periyar is not against Brahmins he is only against Brahminism and Hiduisim, he is a very smart politician not having guts to talk about other religions (may be he don't care about other religious people in TN), He don't want idol worships and encourage his statue worships to his poor followers. Thanks to his "all are equal for god" policy now TamilNadu temples are over flooded with devotees.Please note Periyar enjoys his life in all ways upto his 60 and marry his subordinate with wrong reasons, done a same old logic to get publicity, attack the minority in a group get the majority support he did against Brahmins. We are come long way from Periyar age he is Real Example for Double Standards.Leave & forget that old guy.
To all Brahmin Bashers and Similarly to all SC/ST/OBC Bashers as well as to religion bashers such as Hindu Bashers, Muslims Bashers, Christian Bashers etc. and caste bashers . To all Hindi Speaking Bashers as well as to all Tamil Speaking Bashers as well as to all other regional language speaking bashers To all religious chauvinists, to all caste chauvinists, to all linguistic chauvinists,to all regional chauvinists.....
STOP BALKANIZATION OF INDIA!!!!!
SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!
This isn't the land of Slobodan Milosovic, don't make it one!!!!
I know some people want to keep on abusing others and want to get away with it and if somehow someone complains then they try to stop him from doing so or shout him down similar to Hitler's SS. It is just one example of the nazification/talibanization/balkanization this country is heading towards. People here are targeting communities believing what great service they do to their kins not realizing that targeting any community in itself is a great disservice to the country and to their community itself.I don't want my country to have several partitions on communal,casteist and linguistic-regional lines, but with all this going on, I can only look in dismay as to what my country is slowly turning into. A great disservice to the country is being done by this balkanization process and seems loyalties from India have now narrowed down to local affiliations,there seems to be no patriotism left!!!! It just seems to be a Feudal structure waiting to erupt similar to what happened in 47!! Shame on all those who think what great deeds they do by abusing people, those who think that their local loyalties are far greater than this country and that the country can be compromised at any cost to fulfill their wishes and give vent to their prejudices.If you have any sanity left, come to your senses!!!!
RE:India is not Yugoslavia for God Sake!!!!
by avinash kadam on May 03, 2007 12:54 AM Permalink
Great Akash! We must come out of this chavinism and shd believe in huminism Tolerance and respect for human values is actually the message of all ancient civilizations
RE:India is not Yugoslavia for God Sake!!!!
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 02, 2007 08:57 PM Permalink
Today I changed my mind Akash Keep on repeating message. I see a lot of venom for one another. Lets start to behave
Dinesh is here talking for reservations. I agree we need reservations We seem to disagree at what level. I want merit to be the criteria and to bring the under privileged group of students to achieve this merit this reservations should be introduced for training the kids at the school level. This way The foundation will be strong. Once the foundation is strong every one is on a plain field No UC/BC/MBC etc. For this the govt should start investing in our schools get more qualified teachers.
Down side of the current reservation system, Imagine a student from a village comes into a top Engineering college, he will definitely feel out of place because his peers will be way ahead of him in confidence because of the exposure they have had. Wouldn't that be solve by my suggestion above? The other down side when they pass out of college they will again have to depend on reservation to get employment. Instead if he becomes a merit students he can show the way rather that follow the way? Would that not do wonders to the country?
People also tend to exploit this situation. When I was in Nagpur I met a friend of my cousin who openly says that he just go pass marks because he belonged to SC and thats what his father had said to get a seat in REC Nagpur. The height is that when he was born his father had also pulled some strings to get a SC certificate while he belonged to what would be BC. Is this fair on other SC student who might have lost the spot? Is this what we teach our children to cheat and deceive? Do we want that?
Now coming to this other character KRIS, less said is better. He is spewing venom on Brahmins. I am not sure if he is in genuine need of some help in a mental institution. If given the power he will do an Hitler on Brahmins looks like? This is precisely what Akash has posted against.
RE:Reservations and merit
by dinesh kumar on May 02, 2007 08:27 PM Permalink
sriram dont confuse reservation with funding for schools,they are entirelty different and concurrent. only the scs have very less cutoff marks. if someone cheats,the flaw should be removed.u dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. u described the exact situation. urban people have access to coaching centres. when the guy from the obc who s got the cutoff mark which is almost near the general category,he feels empowered. otherwise , a cabal of urban people will make him feel leftout. kris has raised valid points,his means r resorted to after seeing the language of the other side.
RE:Reservations and merit
by Sriram Vanamamalai on May 02, 2007 08:56 PM Permalink
Again you misunderstood me as always. I am saying let us do what is needed to get the coaching centers in rural areas too. Set reservations only for the people who need that. Collect fees from the haves irrespective of the caste or creed and use those funds to coach haves and have nots. BTW Does Rural areas have no FC people then how come they are not included in your reservations? Oh I get it they do not belong to your caste or creed right? Come on man grow up think forward not backward. Kris has nothing but venom trying to kill all brahmins is that how a human behaves kill others I sure will not behave like that because i am human I would like everyone to have equal and fair opportunities. May be you dont because it does not suit you. Now you may say I am saying this because it does not suit what you suggest, before you get there I am talking about equal opportunities.
BTW I am still awaiting your opinion on the articles I have links to you
