i read the complete article, arguments for and against etc etc. both sides have valid points. Its interesting how words can be twisted to favour one side or the other.
However in the end when 'rubber meets the road' what actually is the fittest shows.
RE:bldy supreme court
by Gautam Sinha on Apr 11, 2008 02:29 PM
SC gave perfect decision. What is problem? It only says reserve seat doesnt say fill even if unqualified.
RE:bldy supreme court
by Kaushik Das on Apr 13, 2008 01:36 AM
what does 'qualified' mean? SC says the marks of reserved candiadates should not be less than 10 marks of the last general candidate. So, what about a 25 mark test where the cut off is 15?
In 1950, "Reservation" policy was put into law, on the view that scheduled castes and scheduled tribes had existed on the margins of Hindu society, never could become part of the main stream. There was unanimous agreement by every member of the Constituent Assembly that for TEN years reservations should apply, and monitored for results, every TEN years. BUT, without any such review, Indian Parliament has been extending the reservation every ten years. Worse, the Congress Party governments extended the reservation to BCs and OBCs, who were all very much the power-wielders in most Indian villages. They were, as land-owners, often the oppressors of the SC and ST. In a number of states, Brahmins were NOT the prominent land-owners. In the southern states, brahmins were never as influential as they have been portrayed. They were treated as "temple-servants" by the OBCs who were the final authority in the vast majority of temples of TamilNadu for instance. Brahmins were NOT consulted by the BCs and OBCs on caste matters.
Now, many people are led to believe in a certain picture of the old caste system, made to imagine Brahmins on horse-back whipping the lower caste people, as in some Bollywood movies. This picture is not the truth. But this picture of an exploitative and arrogant upper castes suits many political purposes. Hence even educated people like Indira Jaising pouring out a lot of cliches. More over, there is no SC living on the margins of Hindu society any longer.
RE:Reservations - Pointers
by Tamilan on Apr 11, 2008 12:22 PM
Brahmins only brought the caste system into India for divide and rule policy, when then entered India from Middle East. Now it is our time man, you have not allowed us to develop. For thousands of years, you were put others in dark and not allowing them.
This reservation is also not correct, they should remove creamy layer. One Lakh income is nothing.
First I want you ask you, you people only started reservation. Not allowed any body for temple jobs, it starts from there.
RE:Reservations - Pointers
by Kaushik Das on Apr 13, 2008 01:54 AM
1. the origins of the caste-system is not known. 2. caste-system as a job-based system is not wrong. CASTEISM IS WRONG. HEREDITARY castes are wrong. We don't know who brought hereditary castes. I cannot believe that brahmins did this - htere might have been regions where brahmins did this but cannot be everywhere - otherwise, how come a majority of brahmins are poor today? 3. It is possible that brahmins' children got an advantage in studying the scriptures and becoming brahmins but the same is the case with carpenter's or businessmen's children. In fact, for owners of rare in-demand skills like carpentry, smithy, pottery, etc or for businessmen, the desire to have their chlidren in the same profession would have been more than that of brahmins. 4. The word sharma means expert. Pandit/Pandey means knowledged. Obviously, a society needs spiritual heads or experts as teachers. You might have noticed that teachers' children do well in class. It is an advantage, not a reservation.
RE:RE:Reservations - Pointers
by Kaushik Das on Apr 13, 2008 01:56 AM
further, 5. brahmins came from mid-east?? Strange. All human beings came from Africa, as per proven research. the aryan invasion theory is bogus and there is no proof of it. India was a land of tribals who slowly mixed together and some of them became aarya or noble. the nobles did not come from outside or at least there is no proof of any such invasion or movement. some politicians who call themselves drawida often propose this theory to fool the masses. There was no aarya-drawida fight and no mass movement of people fro north to south - such movements would definitely have resulted in massive deaths and someone somewhere (at least among the drawidians) would have written about it.
RE:Reservations - Pointers
by Kris iyer on Apr 12, 2008 08:06 AM
Dear Tamilan, Early history is very difficult to figure out. You may have bought some assumptions on the "Aryan" "Dravidian" myth. If you think a bit more deeply, you will realise that it is not possible for any small group of people to "flag off" a caste system. In early history, India's total population has been estimated at about 80 to 100 million, of which the "Purohitas" [ the name "brahmin" was not used then ] or "Poojaris" would have been less than ONE percent. Are we saying that the 95 million people had no brains of their own and accepted the complete "Varna-asrama" system that was advocated by the less-than one percent. No society works in that way. When Manu wrote his Smriti, he was describing an existing system. Tribes and castes specialising in particular trades existed even at the time the Hindu Vedas were being written. A caste specialising in say, carpentry, will not allow people of other castes to take up carpentary. Brahmins may have protected their caste occupation in the same way. Temple-entry, however, was an issue. It was totally unjust to stop Hindus of the lowest castes to enter temples. Even before the British arrived, many brahmins took the initiative to change this. Read "Nandanar Charithram". Even Valmiki in his Ramayana deliberately highlights, Sri Rama embracing people "untouchable" castes (Guhan) eating food with them (Sabari) and so on. So, you will find that the real picture can be built up only through patient reading and thinking things th
RE:Reservations - Pointers
by srinivasan mv on Apr 11, 2008 02:40 PM
Who told Brahmins brought caste system? That shows your ignorance. It has come into vogue based on the occupation. Further, remember one thing, there are more non brahmin dominated temples than the Brahmin dominated temples in Tamil Nadu. In fact there is a law which states that Non brahmins can learn the scrips and come to temple. Why is it they are not coming? because the income there is poor. Brahmins in temples are devoted to God, so they deserve it. Even if a Brahmin is not devoted to God, his place is outside. Do not blame Brahmins for everything.
How many Reddys, Gowdas, Vanniyas etc. are willing to marry SC/STS? Tell out of your heart.
RE:Reservations - Pointers
by Kris iyer on Apr 11, 2008 10:38 AM
Continued: .... Sorry lost the final sentence or two: Our politicians like Arjun Singh, go deaf, when asked: Why not adopt the economic criteria for ALL Indians, to give benefit of reservation? Why not improve the quality of primary and secondary schools in rural areas? Why do they neglect these simple, logical ways. Because they are monkeys who like the honey of power, which they can have only by winning elections.
RE:Reservations - Pointers
by Venkat on Apr 11, 2008 10:51 AM
True. Other upper castes even today having slaves from of Sc/St's. Reported recently from Kolar in KTK, human rights activists came in to rescue of these SC/ST slaves. but would any one questions this? Can lower casts ask with these powerful land lords for their rights? never. Brahmins are the easiest target. They never oppose and they are wearing glass bangles? and they are in less nos.
even today this slavery system is existing in KTK & AP, these are Reddys & Gowdas, very poowerful, can any one has guts to question this? If this is an issue with Brahmins, it would have been a National/International issue!!
RE:Reservations - Pointers
by Inamul Haque on Apr 11, 2008 10:47 AM
Man this article is ABSOLUTE CRAP, why does rediff allow such worthless peices. The author is an absolutely failure, he/she is a terrible liar.
The supreme court decision is a real blow, and when the so called "well known supreme court lawyer" comes out to justify this, atleast i don't have any words. So wait for a time when IIMs and IITs would be thriving for good students and thus would be loosing their reputation. Now add the reservation in the private sector and you can imagine the scenario in the next few years....... Imagine for the days when people would be joining institutions like AIIMS not because they are worthy of that, but because they are from a particular caste. It is really shameful being part of a country which is looking back instead of marching forward. THIS IS A BLACK DAY FOR WHOLE COUNTRY
RE:Please observe 2 minutes silence on death of our great judiciary system....
by cooumare on Apr 11, 2008 04:14 PM
Rejoice for two days! our Supreme court has a heart as well as a mind! thank you hon.judges
RE:Please observe 2 minutes silence on death of our great judiciary system....
by Gautam Sinha on Apr 11, 2008 02:30 PM
Not at all. Anyone who qualifies can excel. SC said reserve seat didnt say fill up even if unqualified
RE:Please observe 2 minutes silence on death of our great judiciary system....
by sujata k on Apr 12, 2008 12:38 PM
BUT IF U LOWER QUALIFYING STANDARDS U CAN FILL ALL SEATS... WHY NOT MAKE PASING MARKS FOR OBC AS 20%
Can Indira Jaising explain how the reservations for the last 60years helped those people? Does the reservations reached the really needed people. Yes. the reservations reached those SC/ST/BC,etc. who are wealthy, clever and know how to manipulate the things. The village folks, I feel, did not got the benefits. Is it true that the reservations mentioned in our Constituion are for only 10 years? If so, why they have been exteneded for more than 60 years. This itself will speak the petti mindeedness of the ruling parties and the castes who are enjoying and denying the fruits of reservations to their brethern who are living in Villages. A challenge to Supreme Court as well as to Political Parties - With this type of reservations can you bring equality even after 1000 years? God only knows.
RE:Blow from Supreme Court.
by Gautam Sinha on Apr 11, 2008 02:32 PM
Did the upper caste in villages come out of the village mindset? Only those who understood and manipulated moved up the ladder either as rich farmer/politician or skilled worker in cities. Same is case with SC / ST from your own post. Why wll they act otehrwise?
The Res from 22% - 50% is a big leap. But should the govt. not focus on laying the right foundations by investing more in primary & secondary schooling. Can a child who gets into IITs and IIMs without roper schooling do substantial help to the growth & developement of society. The govt has to set its priorities right, its not only assing bills & making amendments but investing public money at the right places.
RE:RES ok but...
by Gautam Sinha on Apr 11, 2008 02:38 PM
Yes the SC decision has merely ensured that iff and when the reserved category students ever reach the institues and qualify, then they be included. It doesnt say fill up unqualified people
RE:RES ok but...
by Kaushik Das on Apr 13, 2008 01:58 AM
the deacision is a lot less than that but even if we assume what you are saying - WHO is stopping them from reaching the institutes if they are qualified even now?
The writer has eminently tried to succeed in his attempt to make the readers fools by his words of jugglery,verbose and flowery language and proved that he is a lawyer who could confuse people with his argument.Kudos to his talent!Increase in numbder of seats is with reference to the increasind demand and need for education by all castes -not by mere reserved categories and increase in their % of reservations would mean that a 5 of what otherwise goes to other castes is taken by OBS.Primary education-say up to high school is the basic foundation for the career of any student and after that is taken care of & ensured every one stands on the equal footing for higher& college education which rightly should go in order of the merit/talent irrespective of caste.My learned lawyer friend knows as to the genuineness of the Income Certificates which come to the scene when the rule of creamy layer is applied.I appreciate his 'genuine' concern for the backward expressed in terms of"social change" upward mobility of dispossessed"etc, but he should remember that society does not mean only the reserved categories and their welfare.Eminence is not one's monopoly;it could be in BC/SC or in OC who may have to fight for reservation when relegated to backwardness due to to this continued & progressively increasing policy of reservations which has engulfed almost 2/3 of the total seats /jobs.In the name of reservations,OCs should not be made to moan in silence and sufffer.Country belongs to all.
It is good that the SC has excluded the creamy layers. Thus, this reservation is only for the poor backward castes; thus it is not bad at all. However, the definition of the creamy layers must include people who are above the poverty level but working for the private sector or self-employed. This reservation should be only for the people below the poverty level. The definition of the poverty level should be at least Rs.5000 income per family not Rs. 1800 per family as it is now, which is unrealistic. However, it would be much better to abolish caste/trade based reservation but have a poverty based reservation. There are lots of Brahmins working as porters in every Rly stations. They also deserve reservations as they are poor.
RE:indira- r u educated?
by Gautam Sinha on Apr 11, 2008 02:41 PM
Indiara jaysingh is more qualified than you. your bias against reservations is assuming fair play, but you do not understand that fair play starts with same starting point and same prizes on victory. In case of OBCs the starting point is different and when tehy qualify, they are not accepted by society that much due to caste. Example - people do not go to SC doc even if they secure same degree with same marks, B R Ambedkar didnt get clients despite being highly qualified, etc
