In an era when the Indian Media is dominated by leftists, pseudo-intellects, columns like these come as a refreshing air for us readers. When the entire Indian Media, is lustily going after "oh-so_great" Sonia & her children & when the columnists of the "National" dailies are dominated by "socialist" pinkos, I think i must congratulate rediff, for giving opportunity to authors like Rajeev, who represent the "other" view point. As long as people like Rajeev & Swapan Das Gupta write, we have hope to keep the flame of "Indianism" burning. Else in the flow of JNU-graduated writers and their god-fathers residing in West-Bengal, we were left with nothing but crap to read everyday.
A study of the Y chromosome indicated similarities between the brahmins of Gujrat and the Europeans than that of the South Indians! The basic words of Sanskrit shows so much similarities to those of latin and German The profile of an average north indian Brahmin would show far more similarites to that of a German than that of a Tamilian! The old Germanic and Greek faiths and cultures show a lot of similarites to that of the older Indian relegion. Mohenjadaro and Harappa remain there as testimonies of the Dravidian presence, but still our psuedo-historians are blind. Every country in the path (iran..the world comes from Aryan) records the twin migrations of one branch to India and the other to Europe. Our Psuedo-hisotrians don't. Every true historian in the world has recorded the Aryan invasion, even Bal Gangadhar Tilak mentioned it! now the VHP knows that it is looking silly when it calls the Muslims (who came in 1000 AD) as invaders, when the rank and file of the khaki shorts themselves are descendants of those who came in 1500 BC. Grow up man, this is year 2004. How long will you believe in a lie?
answers Aryan invasion
by Anil Pillai on Jul 22, 2004 03:54 PM
What I pointed out is the stupidity of the VHP in calling Muslims as invaders when the vast majority of us are invaders anyway. The original inhabitants are the ones that we now designate as "STs". I am a Keralite Nair (to those who are ignorant of that, it is an upper caste hindu with enough mix of Aryan blood), but that will not stop me from standing for the truth. You could not refute any of the scientic claims that I put forth, instead tried to attack using emotional statments. Till 1600 the Christain church belived that the world was flat, but that did not make it flat, did it? Take into consideration what I wrote, instead of quoting to me the speeches that you heard in the Shakas. None of you can counter my post because it is the truth and you know it, evne if you claim not to! Why i introduced this? because one of your VHP supporters started that discussion here. I cannot sit silent and watch lies being spread.
RE:Aryan invasion
by ijaz ahmed on Jul 16, 2004 07:23 PM
dear anil pillai, as a tamil muslim, i can see that you are trying hard to support people like me. thank you. but to be honest, your assertions are a little meaningless. the chromosome evidence is not very clear. every study comes up with a different conclusion. language propagation could have happened the other way too, with indians migrating outwards. there is no great evidence of a separate dravidian and a separate aryan identity. you are simply repeating like a mantra the leftist version of the imperialist aryan invasion theory. that theory is now increasingly discredited.
RE:Aryan invasion
by Varun Shekhar on Jul 16, 2004 07:20 PM
Even if the entry of some group of people into the Indian sub-continent around 1500 B.C is trrue, it still doesn't discount or mitigate the horrors of Moslem rule. By the time the Moslem invasions occurred, India was already established as a civilisation for thousands of years. And more than the fact of an invasion, it is the arid, fanatically intolerant, sterile culture the Moslems brought with them, which has no parallel in any "Aryan invasion", real or imagined. Why are Indians so predictable and dogmatic on this point? I like what my late father said about "Aryans" in India today: "there are as many Aryans in India as there are Brahmins in Boston".IOW, no pure Aryans today. I wish also that readers would sick to the topic of India as a potential major power.
RE:Aryan invasion
by Malai Peda on Jul 23, 2004 09:18 PM
Apart from the so-called Aryan invasion (which may or may not have occured), it is a common misconception that there was no invasion or incursion till the arrival of Muslims, barring ofcourse Alexander. The truth is that there have been several invasions as well as peaceful migrations into Bharat from both west and east and this has occured in RECORDED history. Kushans (Yuei-chis) came from todays Sinkiang in China. Sakas (Scythians) from Central Asia made frequent incursions between the time of Maurya & Gupta empires. Vikramaditya defeated them but after Guptas, they prevailed. Today the Saka calender is also followed. They became present day Rajputs and reintroduced customs like sati which had ended in India earlier but was still prevalent in neighbouring lands. Jats are also of mixed origin. Gujjars migrated to India from Central Asia. Most settled in Gujarat which is named after them. You will still find Central Asian facial features such as high cheekbones in many of them (including Ambanis). There is also a Gujarat district in Pakistani Punjab and the Gujrals of Punjab are also Gujjars. In east, Ahoms (Assam), Nagas, Mizos etc all came from into India from further east.
Shri. Vijaya kumar: Aryan invasion
by Anil Pillai on Jul 22, 2004 04:07 PM
Shri. Vijayakumar, I am fully aware that the Ammies (US ppl) easily forget their own tainted history when they talk about freedom. But they still teach the truth that is that they invaded the lands of the American Indians. maybe we should have the guts to teach the truth to our children, and not lies! So did the Spanish, British, Arabs, Turks, and us (what were we doing in malaysia and indo-china?). Just because one historian has changed the truth for a lie, it does not make it a fact. I am as Indian (and I belive that you are a Hindu too) as you, but does it acheive anything when we make a false history just because some khakai short fanatics can accuse some beared/beardless fanatis of being invaders? AIT has been challenged, but in almost all cases, the "historians" are affiliated to some form of VHP or other!
Another gentleman, in his reply to my post, wrote about similarities between Dravidian languages and European ones.. Would you care to list them, instead of just repeating what you heard in the Shaka?
I am quite capable of defending my relegion myself and I guess that my rejection of the offer of "help" from the fanatics is what is irritating their supporters.
RE:Aryan invasion
by Abhilash Pillai on Nov 27, 2005 02:08 PM
Hey...Anil I suppose u r a mallu like me. If that so, you have no right to be a racist. We mallus are crossbreeds. studies have shown that mallus carry the traits of aryan, dravid and even mongoloid features. So, stop being a racist, abd behave like a indian. Moreover, Aryan is a word coined for people of Aryavart(read india). Aryan doesnt in real sense denote a race. Thats for all now Jai Hind Abhilash
RE:Aryan invasion
by Srinivas on Jul 27, 2004 02:14 PM
Anil, again you refuse to understand. You call invaders and latest theroies now go aginast the whole invasion theory! I am not a VHP man but I am not a "so-called" secular like you too. The theory is being disproved by many historians/researchers on scientific facts - i am sure you will now say that these guys do not use sceintific facts and that is why i mentioned using satelliete pictures etc to put forward a new theory. Please you need to understand that none of the things you mentioned as facts are really verifiable and if someone scientifically mentions a different hypothesis do not shun it!
On Darvidian and european languages thye are known to be common to Finnish, Hungarian, TUrkish, Old Bulgarian. THey are called Finno-Ugric & Ural-Altaic branch of languages. It's proposed that the original language behind Dravidian was in Central Asia!
Even I used to belive (it was taught to us) in the Aryna Invasion theory but after reading enough books and latest literature/evidence/research I speak with a view that we need to relook at the old facts and here i have quoted that the old school also is changin views.
RE:Aryan invasion
by sanjay choudhry on Jul 16, 2004 05:14 PM
The argument is in which direction the migration happened. Historians now say that the whole facts are better explained if the migration is from India to Europe -- considering that no signs of massacres or skeletons or weapons have been unearthed in the Indus Valley Civilization, thus ruling out a violent confrontation between the alleged Dravidians and Aryans. You would have no clue who first set this Aryan invasion theory forth, would you? Or where the word Aryan has come from.
The British of course took the view that the migration was from Europe to India to establish their cultural superiority. Many universities abroad have now taken the Aryan invasion theory out of their sylabbus. Even Romila Thapur, that last cheerleader of Marxist historians, has lately been denying the Aryan invasion theory.
As a Hindu (or are you?), you should at least know more about the latest trends and research about your own civilization than the foriegners. Shame on you.
Pillai
by Vijaya Kumar on Jul 16, 2004 08:24 PM
What are you driving at? Brahmins are foreigners just as Muslims. Your Aryan theory is a speculation. Muslim invasions are historical. Even if what you write is true, Brahmin contribution to our society is the one on which we can ride-other wise we are just like any other tribe. Idiocy is not their contribution; we acquired it with our unfounded prejudice and refusing to learn. Americans are proud of their achievements, they do not hurt themselves because they occupied the Red Indian land or practiced slavery. Indians like you having unbelievably great wealth of knowledge, stink and are not ashamed of putting themselves down and blame some group for it. By the way, caste system existed in India, before your Aryan invasion, Ravana was a Brahmin. Which country did you come from Mr. Pillai? Where did you get the Y chromosome theory? In any case what you wrote has to do with the facts presented by Mr. Sreenivasan? Vijaya Kumar
RE:Aryan invasion
by Srinivas on Jul 17, 2004 07:49 PM
Anil, the problem with you people is you refuse to accept even if there is enough evidence & cling to the old beliefs which give you comfort & then blame people like us for being caught up in a time warp! You accept Tilak on old facts but new evidence is refused. Even your friends like Romila Thapar have changed their stand on Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT). AIT was a way to claim white superiority! You have no idea that a lot of the so-called Dravidian languages have similarities with many European tongues & do you know people now talk of DIT! I dont know how you were trying to relate Iran & Aryan. Arya in Sanskrit means noble & this was a title conferred to a person of good qualities! What do you know about the Harappan times, enough astronomical & excavatory evidence (there are enough places that date to 6,000 BC & back) that show the cultures attributed to the invaders existed from before! The Saraswati river changed its course 7 times before it dried up due to tectonic movements (technology form satellite proves it) & that's the reason civilisations either moved eastward or westward & hence this is called the cradle of the civilisation. Please dont rant with no knowledge
Once upon a time, (not long ago, under Vajpayee's prime-ministership), that such lofty optimistic zeal was a huge undercurrent in all the Indians and NRIs. But now with the leftist as the decision makers, India as super-power seems a distant dream and is out of place/time.
A Mallu writer who had been chucked out of US paying hosannas to India..Dont have anywhere to go now mate..Come to 2004 July man..What have U got on the table..A teeming 100 crore population producing babies on the fly, criminal politicians who can sell the country for may be Rs.100, World No.2 in AIDS etc etc..List any innovation thats currently happening in the country on its own; The max inno we can do is copying drugs OR duplicate things OR adulterate items in PDS; In UK and US the single biggest thing U get is respect for an individual; People are def not going out for money alone; It is to get out of a chaotic perverted dangerous world where the antiscocials rule the roost.. To become even a power leave alone superpower the societal rules must be strong and impartial..First of all concentrate on building a society which beleives in a concept called India then think of looking outward.. Just look around.. There is Karnataka vs TN; Pun Vs rajasthan; Bihar vs Assam/Maharashtra are going on; Not a Ranji match but a mini civil war on basic issues.. This is the start and we can see the end very near..We can then reinvent the wheel once more..
RE:Re: Pax Indica
by Kiran B on Jul 16, 2004 02:33 AM
"Not a Ranji match but a mini civil war on basic issues.. This is the start and we can see the end very near.."
AGB is looking for end of India, while Rajeev Srinivasan is looking for India becoming super power.
RE:Re: Pax Indica
by AGB on Jul 19, 2004 03:32 PM
Its not that we want to see the end of India mate its the concern that it might happen ...If Ur loved ones are affected and U R helpless U feel seething anger and thats what is expressed..Telling that India will rule the world, the best nation, best IT superpower etc etc doesnt mean people are more patriotic ; Those people fall into two categories - downright stupid because of low exposure+ignorance OR supersmart hypocrites like RS/fascists who know what to tell to a frustrated bunch of people who rally around any cause that is offered for their sorry state of existence (including rich people who dream of the opportunity to loot dead people and shops during riots and absence of such scenarios as a sorry state...)An average person will not talk this rubbish and fortunately this country has enough in its rural heart..
RE:Re: Pax Indica
by Abhik Ray-Chaudhury on Jul 15, 2004 12:36 AM
Concept of India is already there. However, it will take some time (decades) before India becomes an economic, military and intellectual power. This will be accomplished by millions of educated indians who learned to love their country, certainly not by westernized deshis writing peculiar english.
Agreed..
by Om on Jul 19, 2004 09:24 AM
What you stated are some bitter truths about India AGB. But what RS has stated is also a fact. To get India out of its misery, we have to dream, to have hope, to be optimistic and not crib about what is already happening, but think of ways to change what is happening. I think people like AGB (pessimists, who can only oppose constructive thoughts) are more dangerous than the criminal politicians, illogical leftists and pseudo-intellects plaguing our society. It is one thing to point out the drawbacks but it is completely different to prophecise a dark future based on a chaotic present.
RE:Re: Pax Indica
by SR on Jul 23, 2004 01:13 PM
dear mr.agb i dunno if u are an americanized desi or one of those indians who never miss a chance to make a snide remark about their home country. but let me remind u that the even america had enough problems of their own before they became the united states...they had slavery,which is no less worse than caste system, and also had a horizontal split in the country on to the issue of slavery..it took them more than a century to grant equal status to non whites and just one sept 11 to destroy the social fabric..they also had their Al Capones,their Nixons and their robert hansens..in the american circles funding politicians is called donations and here we call it a bribe..thats the difference..even in the US u have a faulty electoral system..the previous presidential election is a stark reminder..even they accused each other of rigging.. its all a cycle mr agb..and just as america overcame its drawbacks to become a respected nation(which it no longer is thanks to mr.bush) so too will india..this belief is held in the millions of educated indians who have a dream for their country..and india will become a superpower and when it does u will be forced to eat humble pie..
Though not a malayali, I happened to have lived in Kerala for fifteen years. In 1959 I was in Malappuram, where our servant maid was from an aristocratic Nair Tharavad, who lost everything in the Mopla Lahala. She was the one of the few from her family who resisted conversion into islam. She had some of her brothers and sisters, who were forced into islam, under the threat of certain death. Even today I can recollect some of the gory stories told by her. Then there was this classmate of mine in Manjeri school, a Namboodiri, whose father was chopped down by a Muslim, when he tried to prevent this guy from cutting wood or robbing from his compound. This was few years after the Lahala.The Moplah Lahala was not about agriculture, but simple case of Domination.I find lot of similarities between the present UPA government and the villagers of Varky's Kochappi story!
RE:THE KERALA MALAYALI!
by JK on Jul 14, 2004 12:51 PM
Dear AGB,
Mr. Srinivas is trying to say some +ve Facts. The people like always sees the -ve parts. Just like there are many who are trying hardling to prove India is not shining!!! I agree there are many areas where we have to improve a lot.. but it is not good to show the the other side and criticising. Demotivate people .. Be constructive.. As you mentioned in your message, it is people like you are fighting each other for the sake of criticising. Believe in you and in your country.. and try your best to see a developed India... If you get time. read some books of APJ abdul Kalam
Well certainly India will become a super power.A well written article. There are problems in the country but then which country does not have it. Only things that this country lacks is Self-belief and a good leader.
BTW If you want proof of some Indian without self-belief look no futher just read some of the posts written on this board. Some of the reader even go to length of totally rubishing the idea of India being a super power.
Please be carefull how you present this article. You are way to close to be termed as a member of the Sangh parivar. After all you are trying to promote India and glorious past... the one that is not so dominated by British SUPERIORITY... I mean, the leftist will brand you "Fundamentalist"... although if they do that they paint themselves in a corner.
I agree withthe fact that if the polticial arena is cleaned up it will be a whole new chapter. Anyway, very interesting artcile. Pleasure reading it.
RS, This article was a lot better than the rest you had written, in my eyes. However, it was not free from hatred. You had mentioned about Muslims taking over Europe and how a closed border policy might help to prevent it. For your info, the muslims had tried from Ad 700 (battle of Tours) to Ad 1700 (siege of Vienna) to occupy Europe with no success. If all countries followed such policies, I would like to remind you that both you and me would have never come to the West. many of the Muslims who come are refugees Should they not be the object of our pity than hatred? What is your problem, why do you hate them so much? Why can't we all try to find the good in all relegions? There are plus points and minus points in all. Let us just concentrate on the plus points, and learn what we can from others instead of hating them.
RE:why?
by Anil Pillai on Jul 22, 2004 04:16 PM
Om, Thanks for the post, I see your point of view. I am not blind to the threat that we face from certain bearded/beardless terrorists.. You are right, RS got under my skin because I consider him a hypocrite who wants to stir up communal tensions in India while screaming "racism" when whites do it (in a much lesser extent) in US. If we analyse our history, even though it is very convenient to blame British for their divide and rule policy, we are equally to be blamed for allowing ourselves to be divided. in 1857 rebellion (it was neither a mere sepoy mutniy as the Brits claim, nor the first war of indian independence as VHP claims), it was Indians vs Indians+brits. Peshwa and the Nizam helped the Brits to defeat Tipu. i think that we still have a chance to live together, and to learn from one another, that is the best way to survive. if you ask me, the leaders of the fanatic parties have no intention except power, as was seen when BJP came to power and became best friends with the Kashmiri Muslims while forgeting the poor pundits.
RE:why?
by Om on Jul 19, 2004 09:54 AM
A closed border policy doesnt make sense in a globalised world but Mr. Anil I think you have some old grudge against RS, you oppose him without any hesitation, whether he is aggressive or constructive. You tell us that we must have pity for refugees, agreed....but considering them totally harmless might prove dangerous. The English came to us as "harmless traders" and ruled us for centuries to come and have left on us a lasting blemish. The World's greatest culture, humiliated by barbarians just because we "tried to find the GOOD" not just in religions but all of humanity and were naive enough not to see through the evil designs. We glorify the freedom struggle, but we cannot even give ourselves the credit of having driven them out of India. They left because their own nation was in trouble unlike indians who flee to foreign lands when their own nation is falling apart. Bhagat Singh has warned that if freedom was achieved Congress-style, a communal fire would rage so fiercely that the remaining generations would have their backs broken and their spines snapped trying to extinguish it.
dear rajiv i fully agree with u that history should be dealt impartially but cannot control my laughter on ur writings about supremacy of sanskrit and the pre pythogarous greatest achievements. why u left out that our rulers had planes,far before wright brothers dreamt and lived for 1000 yrs free from diseases before we were invaded by mughals and british.we can improve only by being critical of our past and to my lowcaste brain i cannot see anything beyond sad inhuman things in our past.kindly look into nepal which is ruled by the avatar of mahavishnu and u will feel grateful for the changes done by our invaders. britishers were the first to use dalits in the army and were able to capture the nation fully unlike all other ?great warrior kings in history. we r improving as human beings and onle by being sad and ashamed at our past we will become better humanbeings nor we will just land up being clones of narendra modis
RE:?our glorious past
by ijaz ahmed on Jul 15, 2004 03:58 PM
dear poo, you are on the wrong track here. i read on a tamil newsgroup that rajeev srinivasan is not a brahmin but an ezhava, OBC or other backward community. (do a google search). he seems to have gotten over this caste issue, but you have an enormous chip on the shoulder. just try and get over it. you'll feel much better. you are as good as anybody else. don't let extremist dravidians convince you that you are inferior. ijaz ahmed
RE:?our glorious past
by Sigh on Jul 15, 2004 10:05 PM
This is exactly why our country can't go anywhere. We have a bunch of brainwashed fools like Poo telling us to be ashamed ourselves.
I don't care if you're "low caste" or not. You're an idiot, Poo.
RE:?our glorious past
by Kiran B on Jul 16, 2004 02:40 AM
Dear Poo, all the so-called lower caste people in India are realizing that, they are as good as anyone else and integrating into the growing India. No longer they are letting the extremists, communists and casteists convince them that, they are inferior. Why dont you just try and get over it??? Otherwise, very soon, you will become the ONLY person in India, who feels inferior. Very well said, Mr. Ijaz Ahmed
