prabhupada_p is missing the point that just because Gandhi was criticized on certain grounds dosen't mean that he was not a great person, worth citing as an authority. A person who is stellar can also have something worth crticizing in himslef....that is what humanity is all about, less than perfect.
RE:Humanity, the good and bad
by Sathya on Jul 11, 2004 11:50 AM
In reply to VK's message where he has questioned the right of the person follow any religion he chooses...
The issue is not the one of people changing their faith by their own accord, but it is the concerted efforts of a single community to bring people from other religions into their fold. No one questions about a Hindu changing his faith by intellectual assimliazation of other phoilosophies, but the devious and petty actions of Missionaries in converting people. Remember this is not about religion, IT IS ABOUT POWER. More the followers, MORE THE POWER. Pope wants only POWER. Just like a Politician or a CEO. Would he allow Hindu missionaries to go to Rome and preach Hinduism, leave alone converting people into our fold. Would he let a Hindu temple built in Rome..and have loud Kirtans and Bajans? So, why should he sob about not having a free hand in a foreign country?
RE:Humanity, the good and bad
by prabhupada on Jun 12, 2003 10:31 PM
Dear Mr. Rajiv Totlani
Thanks for your comments.
The points I was trying to make was selective use of others views to substantiate your motives. The critical word is - selective use. A Gandhi cannot become an object to demean when it suits the author and an object to put on a pedestal at the whims of people like Lavkare. My comments were based on the views expressed by the author in the two articles i had quoted. I will appreciate if the author gets the requisite courage to accept that indeed Gandhi was a great man, who showed excellent leadership qualities during our freedom struggle. We have accepted Gandhi knowing very well his limitations but we don't demean him. But people like Lavkare (and RSS / VHP) has made a career out of demaning Gandhi. Humility, indeed is what I demand from Lavkare !
The other point I was trying to make was excessive dependence of Lavkare on Ashok Chowgle's work. What credibility Ashok Chowgle has as a researcher ? Will you give credibility to some work done say by Mani Shankar Aiyer on RSS ? You will not because you already know he will have a biased opinion. Credible research is what I seek from Lavkare.
RE:Humanity, the good and bad
by Sharad on Jun 13, 2003 10:47 PM
To Prabhupada,
I would like to take one exception... RSS/VHP never demonized Gandhi. You will be surprised to know that Gandhi did attend RSS shakha on invitation of Dr. Hedgewar and also had food with RSS swayamsevaks. People sometime recall that food gathering mentioning that Gandhi at that time could not resist to ask the composition of people in the group like how many Harijans (if you don't know that's what Gandhi called to Dalits, it means "God's own people") were there... And he was amazed to know that nobody even cared to ask the cast of any person in the Shakha.. Shakha was for all..
Two points I am trying to make here... Gandhiji was admired by RSS and Seconde, same was true other way as well. Gandhiji did recognize the efforts of social reform and nationalism undertaken by Dr. Hedgewar.
You are highly misplaced when saying that RSS demonizes Gandhi..
It is not christianity's plan to get a greater head count that all other religions. It is the zeal to spread the love and happiness that one has attained from knowing the truth to everybody around. If one knew this was the right path to go, it is only virtuous to teach another person to take it up....not for his/her satisfaction or money but for the other person's salvation and happiness.
Gandhi has been quoted here. Gandhi has always been cautious of not losing the Indian culture. He was only against losing the Indian identity when taking up a new religion. He was even against the westernization of the clothes we wear. He was also against industrialization. But havent we still adopted all of those? What gives us the right to quote him now? But he was never against love for one another. If VHP and RSS could create hatred for one another, then let christianity spread love for on another as Gandhi wanted in this country. Some christians, if are spreading hatred, are to be condemned and punished. For such a person is not a christian but a criminal.
RE: To Ravikiran
by VK on Jun 14, 2003 07:41 PM
From what you have said it appears that the followers of all religions have the same fate then why follow a religion at all if it does not profit anyone much less fight for it? In fact your conclusion should spur us all to find the true meaning of the confusion and despair of our existence and in that setting be able to harmonize the contradictions that present to us. I know we cannot find all the explanations by ourselves because we are finite creatures. All the religions are an effort to connect to the Infinite. Why it should be so difficult to do so given the fact that we have all originated from the same Source, just like children of the same parents, is something that has puzzled man through the ages. Our energies must be concentrated toward the search for an answer in this direction.
RE:Love and the search for truth
by Ravikiran on Jun 11, 2003 07:01 PM
Mr. Moses, Clarify as to what makes u say that Christianity leads to salvation and happiness and other religions don't. Can you prove that all Christians attain salvation and others don't. All religions propogate love and peace and prescribe the path to thruth, do you mean to say only Christian path is right and all others are deadends. Don't you think that if all of us start preaching as vigorously as you do about your path being right (as we also strongly feel our path is to salvation)there will be voilence. Tell me how is a Christian different from people of other faiths, is he not undergoing the same pains and pleasures as others and you die as I do oneday. If that is the only right path, u should be enjoying more preveleges from god for following the right path. Whatever bad a Hindu undergoes the christian undergoes as well and so is the case with pleasure, I enjoy as much as any Christian does despite not following your path. There is as much misery and suffering in Christian countries. Do u mean to say all true christians were spared in WTC. This logic of yours will not make satisfied even if everyone is converted to Christianity don't u still hv Prot-cathlk diff .
RE:Love and the search for truth
by Agg on Jun 12, 2003 09:47 AM
Moses, forget Gandhi for a minute, will you?. Let me remind you (Moses) that Jesus said win everybody with love but your Pope wants to convert (not even win) by every means but love. Missionary activity is worse for Indian culture and hence need to be get rid off! As for other few bad things being : remember two wrongs never made it right! Besides, Indians don't need to justify each and every action of thiers. So please don't use it for justification. Secondly, Gandhi was a average man, a politician, who was elevated to the level of God by congress. Congress leaders themselves never believed and hence never followed Gandhi's priciples e.g. Charkha movement. Many of his opinions such as lack of industrialisation were absurd and devoid of common sense. Anway, the point is all over India the laws must be changed to stop the business of converion! No more discussions, please!
RE:Love and the search for truth
by Hari on Jun 12, 2003 02:46 AM
Religion is, I believe, an extremely private issue. Individuals must be able to choose their religion for themselves and it would probably be best if they chose not to subscribe to any religious faith. That aside, you claimed that you "know the truth". Would you please define it so that the rest of us who don't know it can critique it.
Where does this infantile infatuation with models of the universe, and nature which are incapable of making assertions that can be proved or disproved scientifically come from? Why don't you just turn your back on this gibberish called religion that does not advance our knowledge of the universe or our technological abilities and which has only served to provide a rationale for us to fight amongst ourselves? There are probably a few who would argue that religion inspires art and literature but, so do activities that are patently non-religious. So we don't provably need religion for anything really.
If you really are interested in "truth", start by putting an end to suffering from the delusion of religion, and then learning to think for yourself.
The article by Mr.Arvind, exposes his total ignorance of christianity. He can take consolation from the fact that he is not alone, but most of the population in India, especially the Hindus are obsessed with Christophobia. Why hark on Sonia Gandhi when she is never found attending any Church service, or observing Sundays? Does Mr.Arvind know that the Pope in Rome is only the Head of the Roman Catholic Church and that he has absolutely no control over the protestant churches and their members who are like the RSS of India ?
Thank God that Mr.Arvind was either not born or big enough to be one of the drafters of the Constitution of India. Christian is a proselytising religion. The framers of the constitution knew that very well and so inserted the article 25, guaranteeing the freedom to preach religion. Preaching a religion and forcefully converting someone to that religion are distinct. The Pope exhorted the Bishops of India to preach without fear or favour. Men of good will are welcome to accept or reject the teachings. Where does force come into the picture ? If anyone is found forcing someone to become a christian, he should be punished.
RE:REPLY
by sharad on Jun 11, 2003 11:02 PM
A study must be conducted on the forceful conversions. I would not like to predict the result but bet that results would surprise you, sir!!!
RE:REPLY
by Sathya on Jul 11, 2004 11:56 AM
In reply to Moses - If all you want to speard Love and Compassion and want others to see what you have found, you may just teach Christ's teachings and leave it at that. Do you have to :
1. Change the name of the subject to a Christian name 2. Make him forget his indigenious religion 3. Force him to go to Church and have communion 4. Make him forgo celebrating the festivals and rituals that he/ she has been used to as a child
Remember, knowing peace and love does not require any of the above. So, isn't your hidden agenda to increase the members of your church and your religion?
RE:REPLY
by Ravikiran on Jun 11, 2003 07:23 PM
SEBI218@ You rightly say "If anyone is found forcing someone to become a christian, he should be punished." This is what the law enacted by Tamilnadu and Gujarat is all about, but their is a huge hue and cry from your co-relegionists about this law. Which gives an impression they have been focefully converting people and if they are resorting to that the law will now punish them, which they don't want. The Pope is also pertubed and ruing at this law being enacted.His comments don't behove of a religious head. It would be appropriate for him to limit himself to his religion and his people, rather than commenting on soverign countries and their constitution, to retain the respect we all have for him as the head of Catholic Christians. Ravikiran
RE:REPLY
by Shankar Iyer on Jun 11, 2003 07:04 PM
Dear Moses !!
To spread love there is no need to convert anyone into thier own religion. VHP and RSS were doing service activities in their early days. Today they are in a condition to adopt Violent activities because of Christian Missionaries and Muslim Madraasas.
Its great to here someone speaking about conversion. Conversion should be banned in India. Afterall what the Religion is doing to a country like India is but dividing it. I hope its the same across the world around when it comes to Hinduism. I hope the author can write something of what Hinduism has done for this Country and the path it is taking today. Whats happening today is great. Why should we be bothered about someone like the Pope or etc.. We any have our own rules of our land and dont respect anyone either. What is going on today is really great for the Nation.
Can't understand for the life of my, why anyone would wanna convert in the first place! If its to escape casts, then why do we still have Dalit christians and Dalit muslims? The logic of caste being the primary driver for conversion is completely untrue.
And relegion that preaches only one god and all else is not god is bound to create communal tension. Its for that reason alone we should stop this convesion nonnsense which is dividing people along religion! Just becoming a Muslim or a Christian is not going to alleviate any damned thing!
Its painful to see the way we Indians react to the world. Where strong protests are required, all we offer is meek apologies. The Pope is the latest one telling us whats wrong with us!! Damned!!
Many African countries have seen the rise of Christianity in their land since many years. But is there any peace, are all those countries free from sins? Everywhere rebels are there, military coups, group clashes, atrocities. similarly in south American countries and cuba-philipines, Fiji everywhere. If conversions will not be stopped India will face similar problems. We Hindus are also partly responsible for the success of these missionaries in their game plans, we have forgotten our poor, downtroden brothers and sisters. Saying No to missionaries will not be a solution, we have to embrace tribals, So-called lowercaste people. All educated, rich and forward Hindus have to denounce the caste system. Mr. Lavkare you are doing really a wonderful job, I know it is not easy to write for Hindus in communist dominated media. Varshaji is also doing equally well. Congratulations to both of you. Atindra
RE:Christianity is a threat to World
by VK on Jun 13, 2003 07:26 PM
I must compliment you on your wonderful insight! If Christianity is not bringing "peace" to these countries, can Hinduism do it? One only has to look to India to know the kind of peace Hinduism is bringing to it since this is the only country with a large Hindu population. Maybe you have never heard of all the infighting among Hindus like caste wars, language wars, ethnic wars, regional wars etc. which, either directly or indirectly, facilitated the Muslims and later the British to gain a foothold in India. Well, you don't want that to happen again, do you? And yet, you need the missionaries to open your eyes to the "downtrodden" in your society! My advice- keep your eyes shut as opening them would lead to more strife!
This article echoes the authentic sentiments of many Hindus. The author rightly touched and highlighted the less known but more relevant views of Mahatma Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda.The views of these great personalities should now be the focal point for any discussion on conversion.
Dear Mr. Lavakare, It was a pleasure reading your article. I am not too sure as to why the Pope just talks about India (alone) and targets the Hindu faith so much.
Why not comment/criticise the practices followed in the Gulf Countries like Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/ others where the laws are completey religion-based? They do not have the courage to do that! That's the bitter truth.
Furthermore, I always have had a question as to why everyone targets only the Hindu Community. One should always remember that India is a peace-loving, "saatvic" and secular country. "Secularism" gives an individual the right to follow any faith and not the right to force any faith onto the other. Its better I look at my own "flaws" before looking into the other's.
Yes, if you even look at the literary meaning of the word, "catholism", it means 'universal'. I believe this article gives a very wrong image about catholics. Well, while I can't support for other christion groups such as protestants and christian cults, but catholic religion from the very begining has been a very tolerant, receptive, adaptive and encompassing to the ethnic community where he it went on its missionary work. Catholics in India including myself are very proud to be indians. We believe that we are first indians and then catholics. As hindusim itself teaches that there is only on God but different ways to approach him, so do we feel that embrassing catholism is helping people like me to come to a closer reality towards God and salvation. Such irresponsibile writings leaves a bad scar on peoples mind as to what catholics has to offer mankind.
