European style clothes(in particular lesser clothes),girls drinking habits,roaming with boys, stylish movement and one sided legal protection has made young girls dare enough to take all type of risks and enjoyment. They are to take their own pre-cautions to avoid ugly situations.
Ordinary women, the types with parental family income < Rs. 5 lac p.a., possibly vernacular edu till undergrad, Indian dresses, oiled hair, I trust you all get the picture, are thinking, so what, I've as much right to a good life as anyone else anywhere. It doesn't matter where you come from, or how you look, it only matters, what you can do.
Why not work at a call center? Its a decent salary paying, honest job. The working conditions are fantastic, compared to the standards of living of these women & the skill sets are within their reach.
These are women who are dreaming of putting aside a little money, before they're married. Maybe sharing a little bit of their new found prosperity with their parents, buying them a good cell phone perhaps. These are women looking to have a good time, do a few taboo things, like maybe have a drink at a Pub, or maybe kiss a dude and NOT get married to him! This is a new India, an India of hopes & dreams for ordinary people.
That is the magic of new India. Having a good time was always OK for rich women, whether behind the high walls of Alipore or the high rises of Malabar Hill. Today suddenly, a small town girl can also aspire for this.
Re: Re: New Generation Concept - alternate view
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:54 PM
Just change the gender in your argument....it still holds true...
Re: Re: Re: New Generation Concept - alternate view
by Moral Brigade on Dec 08, 2010 04:34 PM
GENDER is important Mr.Mis-opinionated man ! men do not get sexually assaulted in the night.Men do not have fear of getting molested or their behind does not get touched inappropriately in a crwod.how can you ignore these facts ? JUST PUTTING ACROSS SOME BOOKIS ARGUMENTS WON'T HELP.
Re: Re: Re: New Generation Concept - alternate view
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 03:57 PM
Yes it holds true for both genders. However, the above write up is merely a prologue, a prequel to the below write up. Since I haven't yet heard of single men getting raped by car loads of roving, marauding women, I allowed the gender bias to creep in, on tip toes.
Re: Re: New Generation Concept - alternate view
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 04:08 PM
"usage of condoms exclusively in call-centers are more" - people are having bex in call centers? Doesn't sound likely or even reasonable.
Unethical activities - we have become a slightly more open society, I don't think we're getting more bex, infact, I think the new generation gets less bex than before, though it talks about it a lot more. Typically American, they talk about bex, while the Europeans are at it.
How are divorces increasing day by day? Well, for one, I think, earlier young men had a lot of family pressure against leaving their wives, which has reduced now due to break up of joint families. Women are now financially more independent and won't take things lying down.
BTW, interesting new industry category this, Call-center/Girl,massage-center jobs. I thought there was a technology gap there, between center & girl.
Do you have any personal bad experience, that you think is relevant here?
Re: Re: New Generation Concept - alternate view
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 04:01 PM
Indeed you are yourself a genius, you have not only understood my argument, but also validated it, with suitable & relevant examples. Kudos.
Both Lataji & Kiranji are Ordinary women, by BIRTH. Their work makes them extraordinary, infact, sublime. While their talent & hard work sets them apart in all generations, in their generation specifically, they would have faced a lot more problems, than women who choose their professions, in our new India.
Re: New Generation Concept - alternate view
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 03:45 PM
So some of these women may not be as alert or careful or suspicious as they should be. Well, most of them are youngsters anyway, they will take time to see the real face of the world.
So some of these women get caught in dicey situations, like the girl on the highway near Delhi at 1 am or the married lady near Hinjewadi at Pune in the afternoon, around 12 noon I think sometime back, and are set upon by predators. Regardless of number of limbs, a predator is a predator first by mental conditioning and then by phyical attributes.
Well women were raped earlier also. In the new generation, these women, instead of getting shattered, trying to end their lives, or hide 'their' shame (I've never figured out what exactly it is they have to be ashamed of, since they are the victims of a crime), are immediately approaching the police, keeping their wits about them to share all clues signs etc. with the police. Step in the new generation police, they are actually moving off their backs, and pretty fast too, and getting the culprits and putting them where they belong if they step into our cities, in cells behind iron bars, jails for the 2 legged variety & zoos for those with more limbs.
Pretty good this new India, of hope for the ordinary folks, hope for a better future, and hope for justice in case of crime.
I love this India, this idea, this beautiful place, sure, we're struggling, but we're also getting there, growing, learning, living.
Re: Re: New Generation Concept - alternate view
by Onie on Dec 09, 2010 01:36 PM
"(I've never figured out what exactly it is they have to be ashamed of, since they are the victims of a crime),"
Braavo! Well said. I cringe every time I see the inversion of this basic commonsensical principle play out on some idiotic bollywood production (most recently when the rescued girl in Robot kills herself because she has been rescued nude from a burning building).
It is an insidiously chauvinist conceit this that holds women hostage to some tribal notion of honour. A rape is a personal tragedy, not a social tragedy and the notion that a victim is in some kind of moral debt or has lost face with larger society is deeply noxious.
Re: Re: new generation concept
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 02:51 PM
Please clarify why it is either cheap or relatively cheaper if guys become seb workers? Why gender bias?
Re: Re: Re: new generation concept
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:06 PM
I guess, u haven't read the post on which I have commented, I am very much against gender bias, hence my comment
Wait, you are a genius, you should be able to understand that....
Re: new generation concept
by max skinner on Dec 08, 2010 02:32 PM
This I definitely agree - lot of shallowness and petty status fights have become common lately.
Re: Re: Re: cause of all these problems
by max skinner on Dec 08, 2010 02:31 PM
You are funny. Aren't you using a computer and internet to express your views against IT ?
Now where do you buy your computers and internet connection from? Non IT companies?
Re: cause of all these problems
by Auto Rediff on Dec 08, 2010 02:05 PM
because of this industry i have a car, home, sweet loving wife and sweet children growing up in best possible environment. If this industry vaninshes, paise tera baap kamaayega
Re: Re: Re: cause of all these problems
by Vicky Devil on Dec 08, 2010 02:42 PM
Get a life loser.... Few of your points are acceptable, but not all.. I believe you were thrown out of IT during recession.... If you hate IT so much, just pick up your computer / laptop and throw it from your terrace. Atleast we will be satisfied
Re: Re: Re: Re: cause of all these problems
by Arun Jayaprakash on Dec 08, 2010 04:52 PM
Idhu ulagarinja vishayam, idha very rediff padam pottu katranga. hayyo hayyo
1) Getting run over while crossing the road - the simple act of paying attention, ELIMINATES this completely. 2) Getting assaulted / harrased (women usual victims) - the article above has clarified quite well. 3) Getting robbed / looted - try being inconspicuous with wealth display in public places, e.g. loads of gold (with present prices, even a piddly 20 gm chain costs a fortune), expensive phones, gadgets on display. Use everything, I do, but be discreet. Especially in poorer places, buses, trains etc. 4) In all situations, without exception, always be alert. Keep your eyes, ears, nose wide open, mouth tightly shut. (this would give most of us Indians, who are used to keeping our mouths wide open and everything else tightly shut, a big jolt I guess)!
Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Vishwak Sena on Dec 08, 2010 06:39 PM
dude, dont simply make up stuff. know a simple fact that u cant be too careful in life. how long can u be very careful? If u check facts and history, there are many cases when people are very careful but still are victimized. and dont tell me it is that ur favourite 1%. Maybe u didnt experience any, and if u didnt, then shut ur trap! like u said in one of ur statements here, I think u shd shut ur mouth and open all ur other organs. instead of asking to give protection, u seem to be one of those guys who say the victims are at fault. well, did u get this data from ur family members or what? get a life!
Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 09, 2010 10:02 AM
VS, In my last but one job, with one of India's top 5 groups, my boss, the CEO of the company, was sacked for screwing around with the account boooks. His entire senior team, inlcuding myself, who was not senior, but had just got promoted to manager a month before, were also sacked & issued termination letters saying they were sacked for Financial Irregularities. Despite my domain expertise, no company in my city was willing to touch me. Some friends vanished, and some old ones just reappeared from nowhere.
I immediately switched from my brand new car (bought after I became manager) to my old bike, stopped out all LIC premiums etc., but kept up all conveniences for my wife & daughter. After one month I got a job at 25% of my salary, at a small, one man business, after telling him the truth, with the understanding this was a stop gap arrangement, and kept looking for a job. After 15 - 20 rejections, 3 months later, I joined an MNC, at 1 level higher seniority from my previous job & a salary increase of around 50%. after disclosing my past completely,
I never shed a tear, or blamed my karma, or even my ex - boss, a jerk, if ever there was one.
Sena, I've got a life, & trust me, its as good as any enjoyed by a Westerner. I travel outside India, holiday, party, love my work, am relaxed & spend time with my family. I've come out of the debts I ran up & use my car all the time.
Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 09, 2010 10:03 AM
I'm in control of my life, and proud to be a real man.
Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 09, 2010 10:09 AM
VS, you say I talk about blaming the victims, instead of providing protection. I don't know who or what you are, but I'm sure you'll agree that the people killed in 26/11 were truly victims.
I now wonder, what would have happened, if we weren't a peace loving country, what if guns were not outlawed in this country? What if there were just a couple of people in those hotels on that fateful night, with man sized guns, a .45 or even a .38 & the training & capability to use them?
Would close to 200 innocent people die such a horrible death? I don't think so.
You know about 9/11? You know how many people died?
Do you know, how almost ALL the employees of one company, I think Morgan Stanley, who were on the 18th or 20th floor, when the planes stuck, were saved, because they had a security officer, who believed he is in control of himslef & others' lives? They WALKED down those 18 - 20 floors, AFTER the planes hit. The security officer died, not because he was a coward, but because he was a HERO, after saving his colleagues lives, he WENT BACK INTO the BUILDING to save others.
The girl who was raped at Delhi recently is also a hero, she was tough enough to clearly describe ALL details, helping the other set of heroes, the Delhi police, nab the predators.
I salute all these heroes, real men, standing up for themselves.
Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 01:38 PM
Where did you get the figure of 99 and 1 my argumentative(just for the sake of it) friend??
Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 01:46 PM
Initially I thought of commissioning a well reputed market research agency for hard facts. But the estimated costs were a lot harder than the facts, so I gave that up.
Then I thought of consulting a good Jyotishi Baba, but recalled the fate of the Baba on TV who tried to predict from which angle, Bingo Mad Angles tastes best.
Then I thought of going to the Himalayas for deep thought, meditation & introspection, but at the year end neither the bank nor leave balance permitted me to move out of office.
Finally, in great mental turmoil, I went to do what most men do standing, and there in the surrounds of the office loo, I was hit by, among other sundry items, an inspirational thought, it can be nothing, except 99 & 1.
Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 02:25 PM
You should flush this thought in the loo along with the stuff you intended to flush down.
Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 02:59 PM
OK. Thanks for sharing, what I assume is your own modus operandi with your own thoughts.
Oh, since we're all seriously debating here, I pulled that number 99 Vs 1 right out of my hat. You got any ideas for a different research methodology in this context.
How does the accuracy of the number broadly affect what I say? For eg. if only 85.92 % of what happens to us is due to our actions and a full 14.08% is fate (unguaranteed) how do the actions, I advocate above, get affected?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 03:18 PM
Please share below referred statistical data, with source, size of sample, demography and date of survey. Please provide links to raw data. Further comments shall be forthcoming after independent analysis.
In a genius' world, nothing is sure. Everything is Gausian uncertainity.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happen
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:31 PM
Well, since you have brought up Gausian theory, Normal curves cannot be fitted in this scenario....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:13 PM
Debate might not be serious, but the issue is..
My point is that even if people do take precaution, incidents do happen, and the figure you portray is quite far away from the actual statistical data.
I mean a 50% would be closer to the reality.
I am not sure what happens in a genius' world though...
Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 02:18 PM
Writing witty stuff does not add relevance to the subject matter.
Please speak sense, to debate, else keep your fingers to yourself.
Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 03:02 PM
Await with bated breath, my forthcoming release, "Fingers of Fury"
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:10 PM
Wow, you are amaster at digressing with wit....
Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Li Na on Dec 08, 2010 01:31 PM
Well genius, women are raped by their own relatives in broad daylight. It's necessary to take precaution...but that is no guarantee that it will keep you safe.
Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 01:54 PM
BTW, a little bit on English usage. The word 'precaution' in the sebual context, rarely refers to pepper sprays.
Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 01:39 PM
Lina, thanks for the compliment, though superfluous, since I already know my IQ, and yes it is genius.
Didn't know such stuff happened in broad daylight, thought it happened behind closed doors / in hushed tones.
the unguaranteed part = 1% fate, articulated at the commencement of my original, pathbreaking, thoughtprovoking write up.
Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 02:20 PM
Thank god that most genius people are not as half as arrogant and in the process don't make fun of themselves.
Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 02:56 PM
I've heard of little people, noble people, beautiful people, thanks for adding genius people to the list.
laughing at oneself & arrogance, don't usually make good bedfellows, even without precautions, whether of the pepper spray kind or not .
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:14 PM
yet you seem to make a spectacle with both the qualities and yes being a genius too adds to the spectacle...
Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Li Na on Dec 08, 2010 04:49 PM
Yes, it happens behind closed doors and in hushed tones...but still "broad daylight."
Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happens to us
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 05:08 PM
Irregardless, if the perpetrator is a relative, then pepper sprays maybe ineffective, not because of relatives' resistance to the same, but due to victims unawareness of source of attack.
More innovative measures, are called for, both as deterrent & precaution.
I'm tired now, no further arguments available, wonder if there are any opinions floating around?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what happen
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 09, 2010 10:12 AM
I understand your confusion at not having heard the word before.
That is the second word I have invented today, the othe one was 'geniusest', please refer my below posts for the same.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We ARE responsible for 99% of what ha
by Unknown Friend on Dec 11, 2010 01:12 AM
really nice discussion all of you. rarely seen on rediff forums where people just abuse each other
"We are not responsible for what happens to us, that is purely our fate. If we get run over by a car while crossing the road, it is in no way our fault or even remotely related to the fact that we were ogling at a pretty girl just behind to our right, talking on the cell phone & running to reach the bus on the other side of the road. It is onl due to our Karma. In one of our previous births, we would have run over some other of God's creation, and so in this birth we have been run over. The turn of the driver of the vehicle will also definitely come, if not in this birth, then in some other."
Re: Re: Article is completely against our Hindu ethos of Karma
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 09, 2010 10:13 AM
I'm dead serious. Just talk with any middle class person, and s/he'll tell you exactly what I've written above, without the sarcasm. These poor people actually believe that life is not what they make of it, but a result of some vague karma.
Re: Re: Re: Re: pepper sprays
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 02:21 PM
Since you are a self proclaimed genius, you should have known that words which are slangs cannot be posted in original spellings....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pepper sprays
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:09 PM
Wow, since REDIFF filters are not genius like you, they did not filter this word, unlike most other words...
so people use different characters to evade the filters...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pepper sprays
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 03:53 PM
STOP forthwith OM. Enough I say. You seem to match me for every thought in my head, whether Gauss or Grimm.
Pray tell who are you?
Are you my alter ego, albeit without the affinity for wit? A dour genius?
Are you me? Am I suffering from a split personality and posting under two pseudonyms from two different computers?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pepper sprays
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 03:20 PM
Filter, Filter on the wall (FB Wall?) Who is the geniusest (I'm getting into the company of refudiaters here) of them all?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pepper sprays
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 03:28 PM
YOU without a shade of a doubt...because in your case the snow white (or should I say SNOW GENIUS), has not laid his/her foot on the heavenly planet you are in.
Re: awakening call
by Li Na on Dec 08, 2010 12:50 PM
yes dear, women were never raped before 1940s. Rape is a crime of power and not of "lust". The rapist wants to see fear and wants to control the victim in the worst possible way. The first step is not to show any fear.
Re: awakening call
by shibashish mukherjee on Dec 08, 2010 12:55 PM
NM, very well said. I come across your type of views, all the time, especially with working & lower middle classes, generally people whose education is limited to graduation, and who have seldom travelled abroad.
Just a couple of things, that don't completely fit into your theory / hypothesis.
1) Women have always been exploited / raped, in India & abroad. Zamindars / powerful people, at times relatives, indulging in such acts were well known, when money was considered 'bad', by large masses of dirt poor Indians, with no hope of ever earning a decent living in the Socialist paradise (or Hell, take your pick). Everybody in this time, lived in a joint family, including the Zamindar raping the girl & the girl getting raped.
2) Very true, earlier sex was the privelege of the rich, it is now more easily available, like a host of other things, like healthcare, education, opportunity to earn wealth, all are now avaialable for all, some of the side effects of democracy.
3) I read your description of Mexican society, I wouldn't know, because I have limited interest in South America & Sub Sharan Africa. However, I feel the following countries also do not know what is joint family & give importance to wealth:
1) Germany (my favorite) 2) Sweden 3) Norway 5) Netherlands 6) Switzerland. Infact most of western Europe.
UK is too busy looking after Paki / Somali migrants to care about either JT fami
Re: Re: awakening call
by shibashish mukherjee on Dec 08, 2010 12:57 PM
ly or wealth creation. US is busy lecturing, droning, policing the world, aiding Pakistan, stopping Wikileaks & fighting for freedom of speech at the same time, so difficult to comment about them also.
Re: Re: awakening call
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 01:09 PM
You say Germany is your "favorite", but by your spellings it seems you are infatuated by the US of A
Re: Re: Re: awakening call
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 01:19 PM
Is there any chance that the spelling is influenced by one Microsoft Company?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: awakening call
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 01:48 PM
I guess SM is still looking for German office automation company, SAPWORD anyone?
Re: Re: awakening call
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 01:10 PM
By the way, both you and the person on whose comments you have commented have totally digressed from the topic.
Re: Re: Re: awakening call
by Argumentative Indian on Dec 08, 2010 01:53 PM
Lucky guys NM & SM, they haven't partially digressed. Nothing as disgusting as doing things half way, you know.
Like half robin hood, steals from the rich all right, but doesn't give to the poor (- the above pearl of wisdom has been picked up from TV promos of Tees Mar Khan, who may or may not be owners of the copyright).
Re: And
by manish on Dec 08, 2010 12:45 PM
good joke! the defense minister is not empowered to take such an action! matters of internal security are dealt by home ministry.
Re: And
by manish on Dec 08, 2010 12:44 PM
good joke! the defense minister is not empowered to take such an action! matters of internal security are dealt by home ministry.
MR.OPINIONATED MAN, IT IS TRUE THAT DECENT GALS SHOULD BE BACK AFTER 8 PM,NO BUSINESS TO BE OUTSIDE WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND/FAMILY AFTER IT GETS DARK.It is not a good sign if the gal stays out late,he character is is question then. Why you speak of guys,and compare ??? they don't get molested or raped.THE RULES ARE DIFFERENT FOR BOTH SEXES. Now stop being a women-rights-protector when you can't protect them from molestation & rape.
Re: @OPINIONATED MAN
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 12:22 PM
No one is being a women-rights-protector??
Why should you question the character of a woman if she stays out late??? She might be out for work, party whatever, the choice is hers, who are u to moral police her?? India is a free country, and anyone has the right to do anything, if it is not against the laws.
Re: Re: @OPINIONATED MAN
by Moral Brigade on Dec 08, 2010 01:50 PM
m not talking about laws,m talking about morla values...if a woman stays late she is more likely to have a bad character....or may be mixing with men from her workplace.they may start touching her in the name of friendly hugs.
Re: Re: Re: @OPINIONATED MAN
by Unknown Friend on Dec 11, 2010 01:23 AM
@moralbrigade. we don't need bajarangis like you to decide what can we do in our own country.
Re: @OPINIONATED MAN
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 12:37 PM
Just a hypothetical situation for you:
What does a woman do, if her husband is a drunkard, and she has to earn a living to see that her children get a good future, say she cooks at houses, or she is a nurse, so has to come home late???
Re: Re: @OPINIONATED MAN
by Moral Brigade on Dec 08, 2010 01:52 PM
u r creating situtaions for the sake of argument,we all know the women should not stay away from hiome after it's dark,no need to party with guys and laughing out loud with them indecently.They should be servile and obedient.
Re: Re: Re: @OPINIONATED MAN
by Opinionated Man on Dec 08, 2010 02:32 PM
I am not creating a situation, such is the situation in may homes...and we all know that...
