Never thought Sachin was the greatest batsman ever. Maybe He is one of the greatest batsman and may have scored more runs than anybody. To be classified as the numero uno u have to have the intangibles.
Today the indian team displayed the prudence of a world champion but not the class.
I agree with Sobers that Gavaskar was better than Sobers. They may have labelled him a slow but he led India to great fourth innings run chases. In Port of Spain, he lead india in it's first 400 run chase , by scoring a hundred. Vishwanath who scored a century in the same inning admitted that it was Gavaskar's inning that inspired him. I saw his incredible 221 while chasing 438 against England. India scored 429 of which he scored 221. And finally he led the chanrge with a 90 in the tied against Australia. These innings were spread about 15 years apart. But they told the story of the man's desperate desire to win. And he played when India was a lowly ranked country.
I do not mean to belittle Sachin's achievments. Many modern batsman have not been able to achieve he has. He may be greater than his contemporaries. But i cannot accept him to be greatest ever. In an era of protective headgear, flat pitches, strict rules and technological advantages he was good. But in 70's and 80's on underprepared pitches when it was difficult to score 200 in a single day, that was different stuff.
Re: Re: Greatest Batsman
by Ravi Iyer on Jan 07, 2011 06:35 AM
Gavaskar never played a zim or a ban. Mind you he had 13 100s v the mighty WI whose bowlers breathed fire on any pitch. Sachin is a statistical hero not a situational hero.
Re: Re: Re: Greatest Batsman
by Gopal on Jan 07, 2011 06:55 AM
For that token, go chk Sachin's record against the aussies..i have been old enough to have seen both these guys play, and Sachin is just too good - if you guys talk about 400 we scored once, we also have the 387 where sachin scored a century in the last innings against England, just a couple of years back..
Re: Greatest Batsman
by arvin g on Jan 07, 2011 05:14 AM
in all these tests india had about 2 days to score runs... and if there was no protective gear then there was no batsman vidoes either for bowlers to study their weaknesses... there was no media scrutiny and no internet... whatevr media said was accepted...
Re: Re: Greatest Batsman
by super hero on Jan 07, 2011 05:41 AM
@Harish: From 1985-2000, ppl played with same helmets,covered flat pitches, Still in those days 250 is a winnable score in a ODI and runrate or 2.5 to 3 is a norm in tests. Its just a generational change. Not entirely because the cricket was more tough.Its how u want to percieve the past.
Whom to BLAME.. though congrats india as they first time leveled a series in SA>. we could have won.. TO BLAME IT HAS TO BE BOWLERS AS THEY COULDNT TAKE KALLIS'S WICKET.. AND THAT THE BIG DIFFERENCE.. CHANCES OF LOSING WAS MORE THAN WE WIN AT THE LAST DAY WHO CAN SCORE A 340 RUNS ON LAST DAY.. IN LAST INNINGS ITS POSSIBLE BUT NOT ON LAST DAY???? SO DONT BLAME BATSMEN.. BLAME THE BOWLERS AND CAPTAINS STRATEGY ON DAY 4TH...
Re: Blame?
by john rambo on Jan 07, 2011 05:00 AM
if u ask me i say its G.SMITH fault boss!! What u think man if he declared at about 280-300 lead u think their bowlers cud let indians get to that target easily?? Yes our bowlers in the end cudnot take wickets becoz i think the pitch too changed....
But overally i believe grame smith spoilt the whole show like a lame duck reaching for the most secured lead of 342 runs for india to chase on the last day!!!!
I think India lost a great opportunity to win a test series in SA. I will blame the bowlers for it at they lost an opportunity bowling first on the seaming wicket they should not have allowed SA to get to 362 in the First Inns as well as in the second Inns when Sa were 130/6 our bowlers allowed them to get 340.. Bowlers lost a chance to create history
ever thought that 40 years from now cricketers will say oh during sachin's time they didnt have rotating pitches(get the drift) of this tech wasnt there blah blah each players during his time had to sweat it out. As per this logic kapil dev sunil gavaskar had it very easy in their careers facing patrick patterson malcom marhsall etc when a player is from a particular era only he knows what its like to face tough oppostion. 30 years from now there will be another record breaker (if bradman's record got broken so will sachins and during that time there may be bowlers bowling 200mph compared to 140mph speed of today. better technology more innovations. can you something about what will be the future you cant you can only criticise the past becuase you know about it so take chill pill and stop your comparisons.
Re: DON was the greatest even tendulkar grew up idolising him
by arvin g on Jan 07, 2011 04:50 AM
u right there is no comparison between home pitches bully bradman and greatest ever sachin...
Re: Re: DON was the greatest even tendulkar grew up idolising him
by Against Pseudos on Jan 07, 2011 08:22 AM
Arvin G:
Its definitely a pride to have a great Indian batsman; but let's not go overboard and let's stick to logic...
Tim Jim is merely replying to Vijay who writes Ph.D. theses on this very forum... If you have a logical answer to Tim (as he did to Vijay); let's give it instead of behaving like other Rediff Chest Beaters... :)
Re: Re: Re: DON was the greatest even tendulkar grew up idolising
by arvin g on Jan 07, 2011 08:54 AM
AP until 15/20 years ago don would have been considered the greatest batsman ever... but now with all the information available it is very obious that bradman was a great batsman on home pitches playing against friendly bowlers... and playing on average 3 tests a year does not make one greatest... furthermore people including umpires were so much in awe of bradman that noone dared appeal against him or give him out lbw ... only lbw's he had were in first year of his career or after world war 2 when don mania had become little less... it is like miandad whom was hardly given lbw in pakistan... it is not question of chest beating... but playing 100 days of international cricket every year against all kind of oppositions all over the world and playing 12-15 days of cricket agaginst selected teams on home grounds is a big difference...
Re: Re: DON was the greatest even tendulkar grew up idolising him
by Against Pseudos on Jan 07, 2011 08:28 AM
Paloly:
Notice that he said "might" not "will"...
Secondly if someone had asked 100 years back whether one can jump 2.45 metres you'd have received similar response as yours... :)
And you would've received the same response if you had asked 100 years back about jumping 5 metres with Pole Vault..
But there was a Fosbury and there was a Sergey Bubka... remember? And then others started doing the same... :)
I am in no way saying that someone WILL bowl at 200 mph... I am just saying that "maybe" someone will bowl at a considerably higher speed.. After all, didn't Vijay just prove to us in his Ph.D. theses that bowlers have started bowling more fiercely since the Bradman era, and fielders have become super ahtletes in the same time period? :)
Re: Re: Re: DON was the greatest even tendulkar grew up idolising
by Against Pseudos on Jan 07, 2011 08:29 AM
2.45 metres High Jump; just to clarify, lest you start another surprise routine about something else... :)
as usual flat pitches bully sehwag failed miserable in sa... but media will focus on gambhir or dravid or sachin or laxman... outside asia sehwag never helped india win a test... highest score in a win being 47... and he is called most dangerous and winning batsman... today for india to win a quick fire start was needed from sehwag but as usual he again failed to deliver...
There has been a lot of comparison whether Sachin is indeed the greatest ever. The following thoughts should end it:
1) First few matches average for Michael Hussey was above 85 and so was Dhoni's.. see where they stand now.. One must have the longetivity and stamina to perform in all forms of cricket and that too CONSISTENTLY!! just playing a few test matches in some Era where people didnt even know cricket cant be compared to today's cricket and it's hectic schedules.
2) Don Bradman played in a different era, first of all I wouldnt like to compare but if you have to compare, the bowling was much weaker than it is today! the pitches were flatter and ground was smaller..
3)During Bradman's era, there was no LBW virtualy(umpires gave less) . That means, out of 280 innings which Sachin has played, 67innings are LBW, 14 innings bowled..that means Sachin in those ocassion he can be not out.
4) Bradman much talked average of almost 100 was maintained bcoz he played only 52 test matches , had he had played more than 100 tests , as per law of averages, it wud hav come down to around 50 , so don't be fooled by avg of 100.
5) Bradman played one opponent mainly..England. Sachin against 10 countries and he has excellent records against each of them, with 50 plus avg against the best(aussies).
6) Bradman didnt travel to the subcontinent, so didnt play high class spin. In contrast tendulkar dominated warne,saqlain etc. Great player of spin,pace and swing!
Re: ....
by jinson chacko on Jan 07, 2011 03:39 AM
my foot. if bradman had not missed matches due to war, sachin or any one else wouldnt been in picture for comparison
Re: Re: ....
by mudamosi on Jan 07, 2011 08:41 AM
chacko, why is the bodyline series so much talked about? Just imagine what the modern teams with laptop totting coaches and multi-angle analysis of a batsman would have done to Bradman.
Re: ....
by vijay on Jan 07, 2011 03:11 AM
14) Majority of cricket was played only between england and austtralia. Out of his 52 test he played 37 against england. On the other hand England players had to face those top quality aussie bowlers and he did not. Other teams he played against were WI, India and SA and did not face too many good bowlers. One bowler he faced AV Bedser troubled him a lot he averages 54 against him. This is what I beleive his average shoudl have been if he plaed like his contemporaries like Ponting., so he avg 99 nd others much less.,don dint had to face his own quality aussie bowlers.
Re: ....
by vijay on Jan 07, 2011 03:15 AM
His 17 tests where he scored really heavily 150 average was against india, SA and WI - the then Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Why would uncovered be such a great disadvantage. Protective equipment really did not really matter because amount of short pitched stuff wasnt that much. Well short boundries dont make too much difference becauase batsman like lara, tendulkar, richards or pontings boundries stay hit on any ground.
Re: ....
by vijay on Jan 07, 2011 02:56 AM
7) Bradman didnt have the pressure of ODIs and 2020s.Tendulkar not only played record no of ODIs but also is the leading runs and century scorer. Mind boggling to go alongwith 15000 plus test runs
8) Bradman didnt have the pressure of 1 billion. In india, 1 billion pray that SRT scores big every time he walks out.
9) No media to rip Bradman. While aajtak,and other crappy channels blast tendulkar for any failure.
10) Tendulkar didnt have the support of a good batting order, and remember him playing with likes of somasundran,bharadwaj,noel david,ramesh,ss das and stuff. Bradman was part of invincibles, so batting was shared.
11) Finally tendulkar is a known partnership breaker..150 ODI wickets. A true genious indeed!!
12) Also playing for so many years and so many matches like Tendulkar is staggering. To survive the fitness aspect itself is awesome. Bradman had the luxury to play far fewer matches and remain fit. Tendulkar lost some avg due to fitness.Bradman didnt play 22 years non stop but tendulkar is doing just that and that too with such consistency which is remarkable.
13) and in bradman's era fielding was very poor ,no conscious diving efforts to save 4s n even singles as it happens nowdays.
Re: ....
by vijay on Jan 07, 2011 03:25 AM
16) don was a master and so is sachin. but do not forget one thing sachin has raised the level of batsmanship.
17)i think bradman was a one of the greatest batsman but he played in old times. Where there were no in swing, out swings, that time bowling was simple, but now the time has changed. if a person can single handedly make 2 billion people watch cricket when he is batting, then the man should be something amazing.
Re: Re: ....
by tim jim on Jan 07, 2011 03:38 AM
ever thought that 40 years from now cricketers will say oh during sachin's time they didnt have rotating pitches(get the drift) of this tech wasnt there blah blah each players during his time had to sweat it out
Recently I read one article, which was going about proving Sachin to be the best ever... Then came the counter argument where Don Bradman was been supposed to be the greatest. Suddenly, on pondering over these thoughts , I was curious to know more about Bradman, as Sachin's career has been witnessed by most of us ( and I hope we keep witnessing it till D-Day). My search was more important for me as I too had started pondering who really is the greatest in my views, if I am forced to choose one.I came across some facts which helped me reach my answer on who is the greatest in my views. Would like to share some of my views. First of all, number of test matches played by Sir Don Bradman is 52 as compared to that of Sachin which stands currently at 166. This gives me two points worth wondering. Firstly, playing 166 matches over a period of 20 years takes a lot of toll on your body. One will find extremely tough to keep himself motivated towards a game for so so long! This indeed can only be the work of a genius also in a country like India where because of expectations ressure is huge! Don Bradman played 52 tests over a period of 20 odd years debuting in 1928 and retiring in 1948. Playing 52 tests in 20 years with an avg of 2.5 tests per year keeps your body and mind intact. He never itnessed the draining pressure Sachin has been shouldering for the last 15 years. I agree, in those times no. of mat
Re: .
by arvin g on Jan 07, 2011 02:45 AM
why u wasting ur time with all this analysis... bird-brained morons will never accept sachin as the greatest ever but he is and as for home pitches bully bradman is concerned apart from his average there are many batsman who are much better than him... even umpire used to protect bradman... thats why only 3/4 lbw's towards end of his career...
Re: Re: .
by Sudarshan S on Jan 07, 2011 08:11 AM
why do u have to criticize bradman for that without even having watched him play? why din anyone else have an average in say 70's or 80's. that average of 100 is phenomenal. in the bodyline series bradman averaged around 55 or more and that was considered mediocre for that man. what a gr8. you dont have to degrade someone to prove sachin's greatness. Both sachin and bradman are greats in their own right. this comparision is futile.
Re: .
by vijay on Jan 07, 2011 02:42 AM
I agree, in those times no. of matches played were less but that is the point! Proving himself in 166 tests over a period of 20 years with 400 odd ODIs is no small deal. Secondly, lets talk about the standard of cricket played in those days. 1st official international test match was played in 1877. Obviously, ODIs were not there even in distant future. So, when Bradman started playing international cricket was mere 50 years old and with no. of games so few, I would like to believe it wasnt as evolved. Today with so much professionalism coming into the game with the role of staffs such as coaches, managers etc becoming so important and also evolving technology, it has become much much harder for cricketers to keep their momentum going. With an eye present on every action, every shot, every delivery people are keeping an eye on finding how to deal with each player. How many players we have seen who promised a lot but went bust! Big example been Lance Klusener of SA who stormed the 1999 world cup but fizzled out! Sachin has been able to negate all these things and has kept on marching ahead of the crowd!!! all these factors make me believe Sachin edges past Sir Bradman. Not to mention about other factors such as expectations, talent and other aspects which has been discussed many a times.
Re: Re: .
by Ambuj on Jan 07, 2011 11:18 AM
@Vijay:Nice analysis - I daresay I couldnt have done that. But I disagree. BRADMAN is best ever batsman simply because his average both in first class (234FC with 95 as an average) & test stands way over other batsman till now. His strike rate was even better than Viru (check the stats). He couldnt play more test matches simply because of the worldwar. Fitness: Boss he doesnt have the luxury as modern players to get earnings from cricket- Poor soul has to work for his living. Sometimes he was just in time to come for toss after finishing his office work(forget practice or morning sessions b4 match). He played on uncovered pitches - Try playing just one match on uncovered ground after rain and you will see what I mean- Its living hell for a batsman esp against pacers. In bodyline series Bradman's average was 55 which is currently the yardstick for great batsman. I cant think of more hostile condition ever where many batsman were scared to even come into bat. Sorry mate as a purist I consider Sachin as a miracle, deserving one of the best but to be No 1 ever sorry - Don already crowns that. Food of thought: DO you think Sachin stats will stand for another 50 years? I doubt but Bradman's stats of 95 in FC & 99 .94 in test still stands tall & second best are not even close yet(Atleast I will put my money on Bradman's record). Finally Pressure? - He was the reason for boosting morale during great recession for Aussies. See alltime best tes
Re: Re: .
by Ambuj on Jan 07, 2011 11:19 AM
@Vijay:Nice analysis - I daresay I couldnt have done that. But I disagree. BRADMAN is best ever batsman simply because his average both in first class (234FC with 95 as an average) & test stands way over other batsman till now. His strike rate was even better than Viru (check the stats). He couldnt play more test matches simply because of the worldwar. Fitness: Boss he doesnt have the luxury as modern players to get earnings from cricket- Poor soul has to work for his living. Sometimes he was just in time to come for toss after finishing his office work(forget practice or morning sessions b4 match). He played on uncovered pitches - Try playing just one match on uncovered ground after rain and you will see what I mean- Its living hell for a batsman esp against pacers. In bodyline series Bradman's average was 55 which is currently the yardstick for great batsman. I cant think of more hostile condition ever where many batsman were scared to even come into bat. Sorry mate as a purist I consider Sachin as a miracle, deserving one of the best but to be No 1 ever sorry - Don already crowns that. Food of thought: DO you think Sachin stats will stand for another 50 years? I doubt but Bradman's stats of 95 in FC & 99 .94 in test still stands tall & second best are not even close yet(Atleast I will put my money on Bradman's record). Finally Pressure? - He was the reason for boosting morale during great recession for Aussies. See alltime best tes
Re: Re: .
by Ambuj on Jan 07, 2011 11:20 AM
@Vijay:Nice analysis - I daresay I couldnt have done that. But I disagree. BRADMAN is best ever batsman simply because his average both in first class (234FC with 95 as an average) & test stands way over other batsman till now. His strike rate was even better than Viru (check the stats). He couldnt play more test matches simply because of the worldwar. Fitness: Boss he doesnt have the luxury as modern players to get earnings from cricket- Poor soul has to work for his living. Sometimes he was just in time to come for toss after finishing his office work(forget practice or morning sessions b4 match). He played on uncovered pitches - Try playing just one match on uncovered ground after rain and you will see what I mean- Its living hell for a batsman esp against pacers. In bodyline series Bradman's average was 55 which is currently the yardstick for great batsman. I cant think of more hostile condition ever where many batsman were scared to even come into bat. Sorry mate as a purist I consider Sachin as a miracle, deserving one of the best but to be No 1 ever sorry - Don already crowns that. Food of thought: DO you think Sachin stats will stand for another 50 years? I doubt but Bradman's stats of 95 in FC & 99 .94 in test still stands tall & second best are not even close yet(Atleast I will put my money on Bradman's record). Finally Pressure? - He was the reason for boosting morale during great recession for Aussies. See alltime best
Re: Re: .
by Ambuj on Jan 07, 2011 11:18 AM
@Vijay:Nice analysis - I daresay I couldnt have done that. But I disagree. BRADMAN is best ever batsman simply because his average both in first class (234FC with 95 as an average) & test stands way over other batsman till now. His strike rate was even better than Viru (check the stats). He couldnt play more test matches simply because of the worldwar. Fitness: Boss he doesnt have the luxury as modern players to get earnings from cricket- Poor soul has to work for his living. Sometimes he was just in time to come for toss after finishing his office work(forget practice or morning sessions b4 match). He played on uncovered pitches - Try playing just one match on uncovered ground after rain and you will see what I mean- Its living hell for a batsman esp against pacers. In bodyline series Bradman's average was 55 which is currently the yardstick for great batsman. I cant think of more hostile condition ever where many batsman were scared to even come into bat. Sorry mate as a purist I consider Sachin as a miracle, deserving one of the best but to be No 1 ever sorry - Don already crowns that. Food of thought: DO you think Sachin stats will stand for another 50 years? I doubt but Bradman's stats of 95 in FC & 99 .94 in test still stands tall & second best are not even close yet(Atleast I will put my money on Bradman's record). Finally Pressure? - He was the reason for boosting morale during great recession for Aussies. See alltime best tes
Re: Re: .
by Ambuj on Jan 07, 2011 11:21 AM
@Vijay:Nice analysis - I daresay I couldnt have done that. But I disagree. BRADMAN is best ever batsman simply because his average both in first class (234FC with 95 as an average) & test stands way over other batsman till now. His strike rate was even better than Viru (check the stats). He couldnt play more test matches simply because of the worldwar. Fitness: Boss he doesnt have the luxury as modern players to get earnings from cricket- Poor soul has to work for his living. Sometimes he was just in time to come for toss after finishing his office work(forget practice or morning sessions b4 match). He played on uncovered pitches - Try playing just one match on uncovered ground after rain and you will see what I mean- Its living hell for a batsman esp against pacers. In bodyline series Bradman\'s average was 55 which is currently the yardstick for great batsman. I cant think of more hostile condition ever where many batsman were scared to even come into bat. Sorry mate as a purist I consider Sachin as a miracle, deserving one of the best but to be No 1 ever sorry - Don already crowns that. Food of thought: DO you think Sachin stats will stand for another 50 years? I doubt but Bradman\'s stats of 95 in FC & 99 .94 in test still stands tall & second best are not even close yet(Atleast I will put my money on Bradman\'s record). Finally Pressure? - He was the reason for boosting morale during great recession for Aussies. See alltime
Sir Don Bradman once said "I saw him playing on television and was struck by his technique, so I asked my wife to come look at him. Now I never saw myself play, but I feel that this player is playing much the same as I used to play, and she looked at him on Television and said yes, there is a similarity between the two...hi compactness, technique, stroke production... it all seemed to gel! "..This HIM is Sachin Tendulkar...
Re: .....
by Ambuj on Jan 07, 2011 11:31 AM
you give uncovered pitches on seaming conditions & I bet Sreesanth will bowl the deliveries better than Wasim,McG,Allan Donald.For that matter our gentle Venkatesh Prasad has great outings in SA.. -1 Fielding I agree.. 1 3rd Umpire tend to favors batsman more unless you are talking abt URDS -1
