- Both are capable of playing amazing level of tennis. - If one No. 1 other is No.2. - Most of the time one of the two wins the GS finals. - One has a better record against the other. But the other has overall better record (more GS semi-finals, more GS, all GS) and more complete "tennis" game.
In my opinion, one is definitely among the greatest ever. The other has some more road to cover before the debate over his inclusion in the "best" category should begin.
I believe that cynics, like some seen here, have following expectations from Federer
1. When he retires, he should have positive H2H against all players he played against, especially Nadal, although he is 5 years younger 2. He should complete the calendar grandslam twice 3. He must defeat Nadal in French Open final. If Nadal fails to reach finals, its Federer's fault 4. He MUST have completed the calendar grandslam in the year in which he retires 5. He must have Olympic Singles Gold Medal, defeating Nadal on the way 6. If his interviews are found "arrogant" or "disrespectful", he would not be called the Greatest
Is there anything else for "getting the monkey off the back"? :)
Re: The exact expectations
by VASUDEVAN V on Jun 22, 2009 01:56 PM
Spon on Rege. I hope `tennisfan' and `cooldiffusion' read this post. They are making ridiculous comments about Federer, like all Federer critics!
Re: Re: Re: The exact expectations
by Vyankatesh Rege on Jun 22, 2009 02:04 PM
VASUDEVAN,
Unlike some people here, I am mature enough to understand that spelling and other mistakes can happen in such messages and as long as the meaning is sent across, its okay . I am sure you know what I mean ;)
I think Federe is one of the greatest clay courters of his era.......i don't even need to say that Federer is the greatest player on grass and hard courts.. On clay, the only player to have dominated him in Rafa and maybe Gustavo Kuerten had he been 100% fit..
Sampras was so ordinary on clay that even 2nd tier Spanish and Argentinian players would beat him and reaching the French open quarterfinals was all that he could achieve in 1994...that was his best...contrast that with Federer reaching 4 French open finals.......
Re: Pete Sampras was a very ordianry player on clay.......
by alfred tauro on Jun 22, 2009 01:14 PM
correction: Sampras reached the french open semifinal in 1996 losing to Kafelnikov. The only time he reached this stage.......
As I said after last Wimbledon, it will be hard for Nadal to maintain his level. Just after 1 year of his peak he is finished. Nadal should learn from Federer who reached in 3 Grandslam finals last year despite of poor form and fitness. It will be very tough task for Nadal to regain his form and fitness and win any Grandslam(except French Open) in presence of Murray and Federer. All the best to Nadal. Let see how he plays after come back.
Re: It's hard to equalling Federer fitness level.........
by alfred tauro on Jun 22, 2009 01:15 PM
I wouldnt say that. Nadal has a great record this year also until the madrid masters final.
Re: Re: It's hard to equalling Federer fitness level.........
by Anurag Rathore on Jun 22, 2009 02:46 PM
He has lost 5-6 matches this year despite he is on his peak. While Federer also lost 6 matches this year despite the fact that he is not at his best. Nadal will found difficulties as soon as age will catch him.
Re: Nadal has lost it
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 11:40 AM
deep dar, you must be one of Nadal's retinue in order to KNOW that Nadal KNOWS that he cannot win Wimbledon and that is why he has withdrawn, WOW, what a Nadal-insider you must be!!!!
Actually, your personal opinions, bereft of facts and stats, tell me how little you know about tennis and even less about the appreciation that genuinely great sportsmen, Nadal and Federer included, objectively deserve.
Re: Nadal has lost it
by cooldiffusion on Jun 22, 2009 12:15 PM
Dear Deep(ly)-in-the-Dar(k) ... as I have mentioned in a previous posting .. the importance of being factual cannot be overstated especially in your case! Don't let your emotions overtake the facts .. Nadal is thoroughbred sportsman and would never stoop to the levels you accuse him of (withdrawaing to avoid loosing?). He has proved over and over ...actually 6 times in Grandslam events that he has Federer's number and when he is healthy he will do it again and again.
Re: Nadal has lost it
by Bala on Jun 22, 2009 11:00 AM
I am sure Federer can beat Nadal on Clay next year French open. Hope Nadal does'nt run away with an injury..
Re: Re: Nadal has lost it
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 11:44 AM
Bala, one is sure that the great sportsman that you surely are to know that Nadal has got to where he has by running away due to injury, you will surely be imvited to take his place at next year's French Open and you will condescendingly agree to the organisers' invitation.
Those who think more about federer's emotional outburst or his bad luck at Roland garros, you've to agree that he is the best player the game ever had. All those controversies and comments on the King would be like writings on sand and are erased when a wave reaches the shore. The wave of brilliance in tennis comes out for every grand slam in the year, and at the end there's nothing but admiration for the emperor.
So, in the past, now and forever, Federer is the best. The sea is always calm before the storm. When it starts, you never know what's in the store
Re: Federer's still the King
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 10:51 AM
manish, your using words such as 'king' and 'emperor' does not automatically make Federer the best player.
The paucity of really substantial comment from you is shown up by your usage of vacuous phrases such as 'writings on sand', 'wave reaches the shore', 'wave of brilliance in tennis', 'sea is always calm before the storm', etc.
What do such phrases have anything to do with the matter under discussion and they hardly convey the impression that you have any mastery of relevant expression in the English language!!
Re: Re: Federer's still the King
by manish on Jun 23, 2009 09:51 AM
I seriously pity you and your knowledge in english language. Don't worry, join 5th class again...they will teach you how to read and write.
Federer might very well have to win the French Open one more time to put to rest that this time was not just a one-time fluke - just about squeezing past Haas and even Del Potro.
To establish any sort of preeminence on clay, Federer - just as Nadal is/would be required to prevail over Federer on grass - would be required to beat Nadal in a French Open Final as they would be unlikely to be seeded to meet earlier than the Final.
So, he is gravely mistaken when he says that he "does not need to win Paris any more" specially if he wants to be considered as one of the greatest of all time. He will stake that claim to greatness if he wins another French Open and beats Nadal in a direct match-up along the way to the Final or in the Final.
Otherwise, the impression is likely to persist that Federer was lucky to squeeze past Haas and Del Potro while Soderling played at his best to eliminate Nadal and then was so overwhelmed by the occasion of being in the Final that Federer won without much of a fight, without really being challenged.
Re: He might have to win French one more time !!
by deep dar on Jun 22, 2009 10:52 AM
federer doesn't need to listen to ppl like u who r out to demean him everytime!
Re: Re: He might have to win French one more time !!
by Anuraug Rathor on Jun 22, 2009 03:21 PM
Neither does Nadal need to listen to clueless fools like you Deep Dork!
Re: Re: He might have to win French one more time !!
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 11:52 AM
deep dar, not demean (wow, you DO know a good word or two) but by giving reasoned comment, not inane ones such as 'federer rocks'.
and by the way, the comments offered here are for others who come here to read and comment, not for Federer!!!!
if Federer were reading and listening to you and me he wouldn't be Federer then!!!!
Re: He might have to win French one more time !!
by alfred tauro on Jun 22, 2009 01:18 PM
Mr. tennis fan, it is not federer's fault that nadal lost early this year. Can nadal boast of this:20 straight GS semis, 15 of last 16 GS finals, atleast 2 majors wins 5 years in a row? by the way this is not the complete resume of federer.
Re: Re: He might have to win French one more time !!
by Anuraug Rathor on Jun 22, 2009 03:24 PM
Mr Tauro,Nadal cant boast of having played as many years as Fedex has to achieve that resume.So think well before you open your mouth especially on a public forum.Also please go over Fedex's resume which you prepared, and see what he had achieved when he was Rafa's age.Blind groupie devotion shoudl never take the place of true objective knowledge.Good day to you.
and the claim that he's the greatest. Nadal record against Federer 9/6 i.e. 9 times that Nadal has beaten Federer and 6 times Federer has beaten Nadal and out of 9 times ... 6 have been at grand slams. Incidentally Federer record against Murray is even more lopsides 6/2 ... 6 times that Murray has beaten Federer. Federer is fortunate that events played out the way they did at the French and now at Wimbledom, he should thank Dame Luck , put aside all nonsense about being the greatest and get on with it ... maybe he will win his 15th, maybe he wont. But even if he wins it still does not make the greatest ... to even put forward that claim he needs to conquer Nadal and at the Slams....besides dealing with the other greats of yesteryear Gonzalez, Tilden, Laver, Borg, Sampras.
Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair out
by Abhinay Verma on Jun 22, 2009 02:11 PM
Going by your foolish logic, Federer needs to beat Boris Becker, Rod Laver, McEnroe, Bjorn Borg and Jimmy Connors in a final to be called the greatest ever.
Both Nadal and Murray are younger than Fed. Fed's record against these players are not a measure of his greatestness. Let Nadal and Murray show the same consistency in reaching and winning Grand Slam finals and then we will talk about who is great and who is not.
Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 10:16 AM
manish, you seem to be saying that you are "too foolish to comment anything".
one should learn to use words wisely and to express what we wish to express rather than make us sound foolish.
Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair out
by VASUDEVAN V on Jun 22, 2009 10:09 AM
Yes, Federer is so lucky he has 14 Grand Slam titles, 20 consecutive Semi Finals in Grand Slams, 24 consecutive victories in Finals, 19 Grand Slam Finals - a record alongside Lendl - well the list is endless. Is it Federer's fault that his so called arch rivals lose in the fourth round, pre-quareters etc. or get injured? The so called great Murray is struggling to reach the finals of Grand Slam events -his only finals being the US finals last year where he lost to Federer in straight sets. Djokovic won the 2008 Australian Open finals and thereafter his record in Grand Slams is abysmal. In Grand Slams you have to last 2 weeks, playing best of 5 sets and only the best in terms of game and stamina can win. Federer has both and his individual records against Nadal and Murray has no meaning when it comes to Grand Slams. May Dame Luck continue to smile on Federer and may he win more Grand Slams even as others win minor tournaments and claim greatness because they have beaten Federer in minor tournaments. To last so long, without injury (Nadal's physical game has caught up with his body)is no joke.
Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair
by cooldiffusion on Jun 22, 2009 10:27 AM
That Federer is one of the greatest is not being questioned ... that his records are amazing again is not in doubt. The point that is being raised is that there is just one question mark over the claim that he is the greatest of all time. And that question mark is Nadal .. Nadal's record against Federer in grand slam events(beat him 6 times ... 4 French, 1 Wimbledon, 1 Australian) raises that question. The fact that Nadal beat Federer in the Wimbledon final on Federer best surface raises that question alongwith the fact that Roger could not beat Nadal on his best surface(Clay). But Federer definitely one of the greatest but with a monkey still there
Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer
by VASUDEVAN V on Jun 22, 2009 10:39 AM
As I have categorically said, record against individuals is meaningless. Sampras has a negative record against Wayne Ferriera of South Africa. Does this in any way diminish the record of Sampras? It is the overall record that matters. Let Murray, Nadal and others win as much and as often as Federer in Grand Slams, then we can talk about monkeys etc. May be Nadal and Murray can beat Federer, but they are losing to others before meeting Federer in the finals. So, what monkeys are we talking about? Monkeys are those who question Federer's very ability just because he has negative records against Nadal and Federer. This is part of the game but in no way diminishes the achievements of Federer - monkey or no monkey!
Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Fede
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 11:04 AM
Vasudevan, please FOCUS !!
If you are giving the Ferreira-Sampras example, please offer the head-to-head record. Was it just one or two matches or several matches over a long period of time.
Your CATEGORICALLY saying anything does not automatically become true. Your agitation is so high that you are mistakenly typing:
"Monkeys are those who question Federer's very ability just because he has negative records against Nadal and Federer."
One hopes you can spot the discrepancy in what you typed out there in that statement of yours - you surely meant Nadal and Murray instead of Nadal and Federer !!!!
Calm down and make some well-considered comments that add to the discussion rather than detract from it.
Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair
by VASUDEVAN V on Jun 22, 2009 10:10 AM
Sorry: fourth round and pre-quarters are one and the same. It should read, fourth round or quarters etc.
Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 10:29 AM
Vasudevan, Murray might very well upset Federer's applecart at Wimbledon this year!! Let's see what happens.
To say that Nadal's and Murray's head-to-head records against Federer have no meaning is as silly as saying that Federer has no claim to being one of the greatest tennis players ever.
After all, anyone who is to be considered as the greatest of all time should at least be dominant over all other players on all surfaces in the era that he is playing in.
And THAT IS NOT THE CASE as far as Federer vs Nadal and Federer vs Murray goes.
Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer
by VASUDEVAN V on Jun 22, 2009 10:45 AM
I repeat, head to head is meaningless. Murray can go on beating Federer anywhere and everywhere. But till he wins a Grandslam, his achievement against Federer individually has no meaning. Similarly, Federer may go on losing to Nadal and Murray anywhere and everywhere, but so long as he wins Grandslams - keeping fit, playing good tennis over two weeks in best of five sets - that is what matters. Murray may upset Federer's applecart this year, tennis fan. For that Murray has first got to reach the finals. Keep your fingers crossed. As for Federer, even if he loses in the first round of every Grandslam from here on, he has left such a legacy already there is lot of catching up to do for the likes of Nadal, Murray etc.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Fede
by Anuraug Rathor on Jun 22, 2009 03:31 PM
VASUDEVAN, PLEASE TAKE A SHOT OF VALIUM TO COOL YOUR IDIOT NERVES,YOU ARE SO AGITATED YOU ARE NOT SEEING SENSE.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Fede
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 11:22 AM
Well Vasudevan, as you are talking of 'he has left such a legacy', please tell me in which year has Federer equalled THE LEGACY of Budge and Laver by winning all four slams in the same year!!
After all, such a leaving-behind-a-legacy player should have been good enough to win all the slams in at least one year let alone in two years as Laver did.
So, would it be correct to say that Federer has a lot of catching up to do with Budge and Laver's legacy?
To say that head-to-head record against the main rivals of the day is meaningless cannot be taken as a serious well-considered comment, only an emotionally over-wrought one.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull
by VASUDEVAN V on Jun 22, 2009 01:44 PM
Tennis fan: Mistakes may creep in more because of speed in typing than agitation. So long as you understand what I write,it is OK. As for legacy, let Nadal and Murray first equal the legacy that will be left behind by Federer. Thereafter we can talk of Laver and Budge, who belong to a completely different era. As Lendl rightly put it, Laver is the greatest before the open era (though Laver won one of his calendar grand slams in the open era) and Federer the greatest in the open era. The likes of Sampras and McEnroe endorse it. I am sure you and I are nothing when compared to these tennis greats who agree that Federer is the greatest of the open era and this they have said taking into consideration his H2H with Nadal and Murray. For you belittling Federer's achievement is a serious well-considered comment, while anything in his defence is emotional and over-wroght! Well, I fail to understand your Tennis logic. And for the record, I very much enjoy watching Nadal and I always felt that he will not last long if he continues at the same pace without taking care of his body. At least temporarily I am proved correct. Let us see how the future unfolds.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Fede
by cooldiffusion on Jun 22, 2009 12:52 PM
Head to head without grandslam victories to show for may not carry weight but not completely ... so let's not underestimate the significance of Murray beating Federer and holding a 6/2 record. But Nadal beating Federer 6 times in grandslams finals is another story ... this is the story of a player who has played at Roger's level in the most prestigious events and beat him more times than he has lost, beat him on Roger's favourite surface, dominated him at this best surafce....very meaningful in the final analysis.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull
by VASUDEVAN V on Jun 22, 2009 01:52 PM
Mr.Cooldiffusion: Out of 6 Grandslam victories of Nadal, 4 are on Clay, which everyone knows is Nadal's favourite surface and Federer's least favourite surface. Other than on Clay, the H2H in Grandslams of Nadal and Federer is 2-2. Nadal did dominate Federer on Clay and Federer himself says that Nadal is the best ever on Clay. As for other surfaces, Federer won one in four sets and the other one in 5 sets, while Nadal won both his in 5 sets. Come on guys, Federer is some thing extra special and let us not belittle him by talking of H2H with Nadal and Murray. After all everyone loses, but it is the overall record that has to be counted to talk of greatness. And Federer already has an enviable overall record in Tennis, at least as on date much better than Nadal and Murray.
Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer
by alfred tauro on Jun 22, 2009 01:24 PM
Rod laver is considered by many to be the greatest. But he didnt have a dominant record against Ken Rosewell his biggest rival. In fact he began winning GS when his best opponents retired or became professional. He had lost 5 GS finals before that. So your arguement about dominating each & every player to be the greatest does not hold water.
Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair out
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 09:44 AM
said with, perhaps, too much heat and not enough coolness :) but quite right, more or less.
Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer hair
by deep dar on Jun 22, 2009 10:53 AM
cooldiffusion and tennis fan, u just pray that nadal plays tennis again and wins grand slam...his circus lasted for 5 yrs...a very good freak show it was...but i am not sure he can keep it up.
Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Federer
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 11:26 AM
deep dar, your using words such as 'circus' and a phrase like 'a very good freak show' actually tells me a lot of your appreciation of sporting achievement and your sportsmanship or the lack of it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull Fede
by Vyankatesh Rege on Jun 22, 2009 12:20 PM
tennis fan and cooldiffusion,
You come across as Federer-haters as even the greats like Laver ans Sampras have accepted Federer as one of the greatest.
As far as H2H are concerned, it pales in comparison because since 2005 (Nadal's breakout year), Nadal won 6 Grandslams, Federer has won 10. Federer won all 4 slams, Nadal hasnt. If Nadal was not good enough to reach finals of Aus Open and US Open, its not Federer's fault. The one who wins 7 rounds at grandslams is a Champion, Period.
Nadal and Murray are 5-6 years younger than Federer and he's still beating them. I wonder how these 2 would fare when they are in the same situation.
As far as the lucky Brit Andy Murray is concerned, he's a non-entity as of now. With your H2H logic, Richard Krajicek was a better player than Sampras. At least, he had a Wimbledon to his name, LOL
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull
by Sivaramakrishnan sivaram on Jun 22, 2009 03:59 PM
Mr.Rege,
Well said about the age difference between Roger Federer and his other contemporaries! What Federer has achieved in the past 7 years in Grand Slams(14 titles which includes victories in 5 consecutive years in Wimbledon & US Open) speaks volumes of his amazing fitness levels as he relies more on playing technique/style unlike other players who rely on sheer and brute power & athleticism (and thus withdraw from major Grand Slam(s) due to injury (I am reminded of the phrase "developing cold feet"!). Only Bjorn Borg dominated French Open and Wimbledon (total 11 Slams) during his era but he could not win US Open.
It will be fair to compare Federer's feats as of date with other player(s) records only after (and if) they remain physically fit and play till Federer's current age. Before this,any comparison will be unfair.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The moneky is fimly on and threating to pull
by Bhasmasur Rakshas on Jun 22, 2009 02:26 PM
And Leander Paes was a better player than Sampras........ROFL and LMFAO........
All these things surrounding Nadal and the latest developments will definetly not be a happy scene for Nadal's fans. Anyways thats what sport is all about injuries and glories. Its nothing but survival of the fittest. In this dog eat dog world, unfortunately Nadal got bitten at the French open and that too on the knees. There is nothing better than hope, which Nadal's fans can certaintly do and hope of his return for the US open.
While doubt will exist if Federer could have beaten Nadal in Paris, the fact remains that this supreme athlete, with grace and poise both on and off the turf,has won 14 Grand Slams. Nadal has to match this feat in various surfaces to be counted as Federer's equal. He has still to win the US Open. Nadal's game is muscular and his counter punching is awesome. But he does not have the all court skills of Federer and this could hurt him in future when he slows down his speed with growing injuries. Federer's critics ,who dumped him after the sensational final in Wimbledon last year, should remember that he was still recovering from a debilitating illness during this match. To his credit, he did not offer that as an excuse. Let us all celebrate that we are fortunate to see one of the greatest tennis players ever displaying all his silken skill and grace for us to savour!
Re: Federer
by tennis fan on Jun 22, 2009 09:38 AM
Dilip, thank you for saying 'one of the greatest players' - which he surely is - and not the greatest player ever.
