In defence of the armed forces

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Re: Good Article but.. by laadlabakdaas on Sep 09, 2008 01:17 AM what we need is a few ex servicemen in the parliament and not ppl who won votes due to votebank politics. official salary of Sonia Gandhi is not the issue. See the money they make in kickbacks and bribes. why not make army experience mandatory for 50% of the politicians in India?? hows that to start iwth    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Abhiram on Sep 08, 2008 11:46 PM I beg to differ. When push comes to shove, it is boots on the ground that matters. Take a look at Iraq or even Afghanistan (especially the report given by the CIA after the Torabora debacle) and it is amply clear that the number of boots of the ground is what carries the fight your way. It is all very well to rely on technology - nodoubt we cannot have an army equipped with mere lathis, but wars are barbaric, and some rules governing them - especially on what decides victory - remain ancient or as the author said, medieval. Note, we are not merely talking defensive wars, the only sure way of preventing war is to have the ability to annihilate the adversary and for this, one must have overwhelming superiority of man and machine. A reqorganization of priorities is therefore very much an urgent need. In the olden days, the caste system ensured that some took to soldiering (out of pride mind you). To move on as a successful democracy, one needs to find an alternate way. Since, war or peace, soldier or civilian, everyone needs some fundamental articles to feel secure. These are materialistic...wealth and honour, both. These days, wealth implies honour although the reverse is not necessarily true. Hence, we cannot have one set of rules for software engrs, doctors, or hotel managers, and an entirely different one - based merely on an idealism, which the rest of population can only pay lip service to - for soldiers, who after all are expected to sacrifice their lives.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by nitin misra on Sep 09, 2008 04:16 AM i just want to add one more thing, did you ever heard in your life, son/daughter of a Politician or an IAS officer died while serving India. Politicians son/daughter are just hooligans. Look at Raj Thakrey. Who is he. Nobody. But look at his guts. Even government is not able to do anything.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by r sreedevi on Sep 21, 2008 12:59 AM I want to remind all the civilians and general public that the terrorists are released for the sake of politician Mufti's daughter who is just one civilian. If anyone is keeping hopes of politicians sending their children to Defence service, then we are expecting too much. The politicians are good for bullying the people for votes and bureaucrats are good for making ways for politicians to sneak away money to swiss and german banks.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Bhanu on Sep 09, 2008 09:59 AM Army itself is not less corrupt. When a major General points at the General about corruption , this is a serious issue. Corruption begins in army at very basic level, right from procuring goods and liquor for CSD to buying weapons from other countries. Have you ever heard of an Indian army general who took bribe from a private construction company for making fortified trenches which could not even sustain the vibrations from artillery shelling? So the whole point is that corruption is no less in the army compared to IAS. Secondly, army people are paid for their jobs and it is their job to protect the nation. This is no different than the job of an IT professional who generates the revenue for the country. Also, contribution of numerous scientists, doctors etc is also equal to any army man. I would point out that the facilities army is getting is non comparable to any other profession in India. CSD ,MH, free ration, free accommodation, half the AC fare in trains and flights for officers and free warrents for JCOs and jawans. All this is paid from the pockets of civilian and not the army. So if you add up all these things, you will notice that army is getting more already than what it deserves for "doing its job".    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Saurabh Gulati on Sep 09, 2008 11:07 AM I really do not like this comment by Bhanu. Do software professionals, IAS officers or doctors have to stand in the line of fire for their jobs? I am sure most of these people will leave their jobs even if there is a slight chance of physical discomfort in their jobs leave aside facing bullets and manning posts at 3000m in a tent. Their is no comparison and hence armed forces should be treated as sacrosant profession. Corruption, inefficiency develops for other reasons and can be handled using other mechanisms - not by devaluing this profession. With Bhanu's attitude, the author's perception & analysis are already proved correct.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Re: Good Article but.. by kashi umrao on Sep 09, 2008 10:58 AM if i give u that all, would u be ready to get ur ass blown off?    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by bhupinder raj on Sep 09, 2008 04:39 PM Dear Bhanu, I donot know the source of your information but let me correct you,the information is nor correct and is more hearsay.facilities like CSD,MH and other are already existing in otherservices in India as well in other countries. The comfots enjoyed by you and me are all due the fact that Service are making it secure and it includes economic growth.Any nation which does not recognise its heroes is doomed.This can be form our own history    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by mylavarapu chandra sekhar on Sep 09, 2008 11:36 AM I feel bhanu is in no mood to understand the seriousness of the situation. I seriously doubt whether any of your family member was ever there in defence. I have my father and brother in airforce and i understand what it takes to serve in defence. The amount of sacrifices a person has to make on account of serving in far off areas. If the job of defense personnnel is as simple as of a IT professional than why is it that they have to put their life at risk. An IT professional life is always secure where as it is not the same for a Army man. Think twice before you make such comments in future.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by raghvendra singh on Sep 09, 2008 11:07 AM While others are also paid to do their jobs such as collect bribes and kickbacks for themselves as well as bosses. So why should someone of QUALITY choose a JOB in the forces? and you know where mediocre leaders will lead to??!    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by raja sekhar on Sep 09, 2008 10:58 AM Dear Madam, Your contention that army is getting other benefits like CSD,MH, free ration, free accommodation etc is only on the papers. But we know only what type of free ration actually it is and the quality, coming to free accommodation you can identify it well well for its ill maintenance.Also all the soldiers are not allotted 100% accommodation. Coming to CSD you will not get what you want. then imagine what is the use of it. Rather than appreciating their service to the nation in the most inhospitable terrain where the temperature is minus 40 where they can not even attend in case of any mishap in their homes. Ratherthan morally supporting the armed forces you are just demotivating them. that is the reason why the young generation dont want to join the forces. I was very much hurt with your comments.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Megan Mills on Sep 12, 2008 12:46 AM Disagree strongly that the Armed Forces are paid adequately for 'doing their job' as one poster expressed it. Perhaps IT people contribute to the economy. The latter however do not sign on for arduous training, endless relocation, service under conditions of what may be extreme duress and danger; then unable to discuss with those known the challenges they face. If the IT professional is somehow serving the country, how useful will he or she prove in a national emergency? How much does an IT professional know of disaster relief procedures? Examine what is involved in the basic training of an ordinary lascar or jawan. How many IT professionals, for a pittance, undergo jungle, mountain and desert training? Unlike the average IT professional, the soldier is not motivated by greed, I think we can presume. By the way, it's not a "job" but a Profession.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Re: Good Article but.. by Saurabh Gulati on Sep 09, 2008 11:08 AM I really do not like this comment by Bhanu. Do software professionals, IAS officers or doctors have to stand in the line of fire for their jobs? I am sure most of these people will leave their jobs even if there is a slight chance of physical discomfort in their jobs leave aside facing bullets and manning posts at 3000m in a tent. Their is no comparison and hence armed forces should be treated as sacrosant profession. Corruption, inefficiency develops for other reasons and can be handled using other mechanisms - not by devaluing this profession. With Bhanu's attitude, the author's perception & analysis are already proved correct.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by kashi umrao on Sep 09, 2008 10:56 AM all machines, all technologies........but one would still require a pair of boot to stand over the victory.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by nitin misra on Sep 09, 2008 04:01 AM Hi, I think your logic is totally wrong. You cannot compare Prime Minister with an IT professional, but you can compare PM with a minister, since they are in same sort of government environment. So it is the question of Designation and the pay scale which decides your supiriority. Do you that an Armed force officer is not allowed to give IAS exam, becoz they join at a higher rank as compared to IAS, and so they cannot appear for a position which is lower then them. If you read any of the corruption reports, you will find that one of the solutions to end the corruption in this country id to end the IAS system. They are the most corrupted people I have seen in my life. I am not able to understand that how they manage to have farmhouses and lavish houses with the kind of salary paid to them. NObody raid them, becoz they are the people who head that department. They are just Higly paid clerks who have all the responsibility without any accountability. Just ask people of 1960's and 1970's. Person who were not able to get a job, use to appear for IAS exams. They were the least qualified ppl tht time. With corruption creeping in politics, politicians needed ppl who will carry out such deeds for them. SO IAS bunch was the least effective ppl, with no work. So they kept on giving them powers, so that they can do whatever they want. It is just that Indians are power hungry that so many ppl sit in IAS exam, and thus increasing the importance of this irrelevant post.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by raghvendra singh on Sep 09, 2008 11:11 AM Boots on ground to keep it under occupation/ captured is what matters after all the superior & latest technology is used to capture it.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Bhanu on Sep 09, 2008 03:12 PM My dad is an army officer, my younger brother is GC at IMA. And army ppl , when they come for the job interviews, they know what are they expected to do. This is no secret that they are kept in dark about job profile. If their job demands to stand in front of enemy fire, thats what they are being paid for. So why suddenly they are complaining? Indian army is not doing their job properly. Because of their negligence, Kargil happened. We had to spend a lot on procuring weapons from other countries during Kargil. Again, if army was sincere in its service, we sould have been in comfortable sitation.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Re: Good Article but.. by Guest on Sep 10, 2008 12:34 AM I doubt whether you are anyway related to anybody in the army. Such poor language and grasp of the subject as well as ignorance of things past and present - Army "happened" because of Army! and we had to procure weapons from other countries because of the Army!!! But the reason I doubt your relationship with anyone/anything Army is your comment about accommodation. Show me an Army man who got accommodation all throughout his service and I will become your servant for life. By the by, have you heard of CGHS? In any case, the gist of the discussion is that while army men may be only doing his job, very soon we may not have any one to join the army to do his job. (Most of the others are anyway not doing their jobs)    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Bhanu on Sep 10, 2008 11:56 AM Dear Guest, My poor selection of words may show my poor grasp on English as a language, however, aim of any language is to convey an idea which I think I successfully did. You may have your reasons to believe what you want to believe, but my intention is not to derogate army as an institution. What I am trying to point out here is that army , just like any other govt organisation, is equally callous towards its job. Whay did Kargil happen? There was no written treaty with pakistan about retreat during slow fall. This was a mutual understanding and when you are doing a job, you can not work on comfortable assumptions. Secondly, when shephards informed about the intrusion, why did army sit numb and didnt do anything. Only later when Capt Kalia was sent to the peaks, and killed, army got a wake up call? Do you call this efficient working? During Kargil war, why did army buy shells for howitzers from South Africa at three times the original cost? What happened to war preparedness of army and stock keeping? Why did Lt. General Panag transferred from Norther Command by Gen Kapoor? Was this done because tents, eggs and lawn movers can actually move generals of the Indian army? About accommodation, have you ever seen any cantonment? Isn't that an accommodation? Do you have any idea about rentals in cities for a 2BHK apartment? What is your point about CGHS?    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Guest on Sep 10, 2008 02:30 PM Dear Bhanu Some of your points are correct but you must understand the following We can argue about Kargil till cows come home but yet not reach a conclusion. The shepherds inputs could have been disregarded because they would have been unreliable in the past. As regards the howitzers ammunition, because of Bofors controversy it could not be procured and finally had be procured at higher cost when the hostilities commenced. General Panag was transferred by the Ministry which comprises of Babus. No army officer or personnel gets an accommodation at all times and very often they have to wait for months before they move into an accommodation. It is not free they also pay the government rate which other government officials pay. The corruption may have made its forays in the defence forces but by and large the service personnel( a vast majority of them) are honest to the core. This has been realised by the corporate world and hence a large number of them are being taken in there.    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Bhanu on Sep 10, 2008 03:24 PM Dear Guest, Though I agree to most of your points, regarding transfer of Lt.gen, I would like to differ. There is substantial proof that this transfer was not a routine thing and was not executed "entirely" by babus alone. Some where inter rank politics withing the army was responsible for this. I don't think rediff is right place to discuss this issue in detail. Govt. has fixed throw away rentals for accommodation compared to existing market rates. So this sure is a relief for defence personnel. Service personnel are ofcourse taken by corporates but this happens majorly because they are seen as "coming from army background". This criteria is not the actual test for their capabilities and talent. Even at IITs , defence personnel are taken for QIP courses because they have govt admissions quota. They do not get there because of their talent and neither do they compete with others in GATE for securing admissions to IIT. And when they pass out of these institutes, they are labeled as IITians and first thing they do is resign from the army :)    Forward   |   Report abuse
Re: Good Article but.. by Prem Nair on Sep 09, 2008 10:29 PM You obviously dont know what they are complaining about. Please find out and then post. The issue is about honour and glory not pay!    Forward   |   Report abuse

Re: Bring back Pride and Honour!!! by jedi boss on Sep 09, 2008 01:04 PM In Korea every guy I worked with has a Military background. They serve minimum 3 yrs. It makes them tough, disciplined and they have terrific comradeship. I wish we had that system in India or something similar. At least all physically & mentally fit graduates can be asked to serve minimum 4-5 yrs in the Armed Forces. They can be given lower salary in lieu of good lump sum gratuity for higher education and seats should be reserved (>50%) for them for their higher degrees. These guys will do wonders later. It will be a win-win situation.    Forward   |   Report abuse