From the article it is apparent that the government is bent upon ensuring that IIMs go the same way that all other government institutions have been going - to the dogs. If you don't have competent B-school faculty who are at least paid the rates that are paid to profs in the market by other international B-schools - how do you attract and retain talent? We will soon find that the really talented will flock to private B-schools where they get their due rather than these archaic government B-schools. Its apparent and I have to say this - but ISB is soon going to be India's Number 1 B-school.
Do SC/STs really have to learn professional and management education with reservation. Professional education should be learnt only by those who are qualified and having enough masala to learn it. What is the point in people who score 30 and 40 out of 100 in entrance examination in coming to prestigeous educational institutes like IIT, RECs and IIMs and AIIMS to learn professional education. They will not be meritoriously qualified enough to withstand the rigors of professional education. Being an RECiite i can vouch for many of these students struggling to cope with the rigors of engineering like subject knowledge and peer pressure etc. Engineering and medicine etc requires sound fundamental knowledge of the subject area which they are asked to demonstrate in entrance examinations. These guys lack that, as a result they get demoralized when faced with competition and pressure and few of them take the extreme step of suicide as they dont have the necessary mental makeup or fundamentals to withstand pressure. Let them go to state run colleges to learn engineering and medicine if they want to try their hand. Govt. is anyway assuring them of employment as there is reservation even in jobs for them. Institutions like IITs, RECs, IIMs, AIIMS etc have strived hard for 50-60 years to develop their reputation as world class educational institutes. Govt. should stop interfering in their affair as they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Promote meritocract.
RE:autonomy to professional educational institutes............
by Nirnay on Dec 05, 2007 02:46 AM
Whenever education or something comes up, people always speak of reservation..The schooling of sc/st's are not good as your children's education, i.e., getting educated in convent schools. so, getting into premier institutes will give them exposure. Tell me, how many of IIT passed outs are scientists?....only few percent of whole passed outs..IIT's just come in Top 100 of the best schools in the world.. guess, IIT BOMBAY is in that list.None of the other IIT's.Except IIT's all other educational institutions are based on cramming up the subject.It doesn't serve any purpose. How long will the upper caste people will take time to change their mind set?
Cannot understand, how many research papers or research are they doing to solve societal problems.. most of them are serving as vehicles for supplying manpower abroad. It is no wonder.. IIT's grads and normal grads from best engineering schools end up in same universities in US. May be these guys (old professors in IIT'S and IIM'S) are fearing that reserved students will get more exposed if they go abroad, there by completely helping in loosening of the grip by upper castes in IIT's and IIM's.. if you think you want to contain this..for your info.. there are sizable number of reserved students abroad.. who are competing with every other on a level ground....
RE:autonomy to professional educational institutes............
by Rajagopal Sadagopan on Dec 05, 2007 06:09 PM
It is true the backward class persons should be uplifted. This can not be done by reservation, as we have seen in the last 5o years. If politicians are really interested in these underprivilaged people, they should give them strong coaching and encourage them to compete on merit for the professional courses.
If we are continuing the reservation policy, neither the downtrodden will come up nor the quality of the persons coming out of these institutions will be upto the mark.
It will be wise on the part of the leaders, especially the ones advocating the uptiftment of the lesser privilaged, to assume this progmatic and practical approach. Till it is done no useful result will emerge.
RE:autonomy to professional educational institutes............
by Voiceinyourhead on Dec 05, 2007 08:11 PM
Dear Rajagopal Sadagopan,
It is not the politicians who are really interested in these underprivilaged people, it is these underprivilaged people who are interested about them. Reservation was & is never about politics. Reservation is a chance, a platform for the progress of the backward classes who have been surpressed since ages.
Why don't you put yourself in a "politician" shoes and enlighten us how to "coach" thse underprivilaged people in a "progmatic and practical approach"?
Do you have any idea how reservations are serving their purpose? Let me tell you how. My grand father is a basket weaver. My father is a postal employee. I am a graduate from one of your "elite institutes". That is how.
RE:autonomy to professional educational institutes............
by Voiceinyourhead on Dec 05, 2007 05:40 AM
Dear Kumaraswamy Pillay,
Yes. The SCs/STs really have to learn professional and management education with reservation. The Indian COnstitution provides them that right. I wonder how you came to the conclusion of 30 or 40 marks. Are you trying to tell that out of the 250 million people there are not even 200 people who could sustain the so-called pressure of subject knowledge and peer pressure? We are about to enter into 2008. Wake up from your sleep. And please do not generalize.
I know that in the IIT Madras 2000 batch, out of the 398 passouts, 360 graduates people have gone abroad for further studies. A handful of them came back, that too for personal reasons. AlMost all of them have studied and settled in US. Most of them are in the US software industry and some of them in various engineering fields. According to the IIM sources, more than half of them leave to work in foreign countries.
You elite institutes are the breeding ground for the future permanent residents of the new world. Why should me as a tax payer should pay for these parasites? Why should the government patrinoze such people? What is the use of these elite institutes?
Have you ever heard "burning bridges"? They need the goverment and the cash to establish the institutes. But once they get stabilized, they need more autonomy. Don't you get the logic? 98 percent of the professors in IITs and IIMs are Bramhins. Do you want to hand the "noose" to them to hang everyone?
RE:RE:autonomy to professional educational institutes............
by PM on Dec 05, 2007 08:56 PM
Purely from a logical standpoint, it seems difficult to follow your arguments and to see how they are intended as a logical position against the arguments made by Kumaraswamy.
You make a statement %u201CAre you trying to tell that out of the 250 million people there are not even 200 people who could sustain the so-called pressure of subject knowledge and peer pressure?%u201D It is not clear how it is meant to repudiate what Kumaraswamy said. In fact this statement of yours buttresses up Kumaraswamy%u2019s point in some way. If %u201C200 people%u201D for a particular section are able to %u201Csustain the so-called pressure of subject knowledge and peer pressure%u201D then they may not need the kind of support debated upon here. There are undoubtedly people from such sections who emerge successful in a competitive environment on their own. Support to the disadvantaged sections of the society is not undesirable; we can debate and have been debating upon its modalities. But the argument made above does not appear to be a relevant counter-argument.
Your second argument is that because some students from the top educational institutions in India move abroad for further studies or jobs, %u201CWhy should the government %u201Cpatrinoze (sic) such people?%u201D It is perplexing how it is related to the broader issue and Kumarswamy%u2019s arguments. Who are %u201Csuch people%u201D? Doesn%u2019t it include people from the disadvantaged sections?
RE:RE:RE:autonomy to professional educational institutes............
by PM on Dec 05, 2007 08:58 PM
..........Do you mean to say that universities abroad also suffer from the caste mentality and are biased against students from disadvantages sections? Further, the statistics given by you (%u201Cout of the 398 passouts, 360 graduates people have gone abroad for further studies%u201D) is staggeringly extreme to believe. You may want to share the source of this data as well as the average level of exodus of the students, not just for a particular year. There have been statistics in the news and discussion forums that say to the contrary. Forget about top engineering institutes; a whole bunch of students from lesser known places are moving out in search of greener pastures. By that logic the government should stop %u201Cpatronizing%u201D these institutes as well. It appears that while making the argument you were driven more by your prejudices than rational thinking and that is why it is difficult to see logical consistency between Kumarswamy%u2019s arguments and your %u201Ccounter-arguments%u201D.
RE:autonomy to professional educational institutes............
by PM on Dec 05, 2007 08:57 PM
You make a statement %u201CAre you trying to tell that out of the 250 million people there are not even 200 people who could sustain the so-called pressure of subject knowledge and peer pressure?%u201D It is not clear how it is meant to repudiate what Kumaraswamy said. In fact this statement of yours buttresses up Kumaraswamy%u2019s point in some way. If %u201C200 people%u201D for a particular section are able to %u201Csustain the so-called pressure of subject knowledge and peer pressure%u201D then they may not need the kind of support debated upon here. There are undoubtedly people from such sections who emerge successful in a competitive environment on their own. Support to the disadvantaged sections of the society is not undesirable; we can debate and have been debating upon its modalities. But the argument made above does not appear to be a relevant counter-argument.
Your second argument is that because some students from the top educational institutions in India move abroad for further studies or jobs, %u201CWhy should the government %u201Cpatrinoze (sic) such people?%u201D It is perplexing how it is related to the broader issue and Kumarswamy%u2019s arguments. Who are %u201Csuch people%u201D? Doesn%u2019t it include people from the disadvantaged sections?Do you mean to say that students from the disadvantages sections do not get such opportunities or they reject such opportunities and stay behind out of patriotism?
IITs are autonomous institutes. There is something a whole lot of my fellow country men and women are not aware of. The constitution provides 15% and 7.5% reservation of seats for SCs and STs respectively in all the educational institutions. I wonder how many people out there are aware that an autonomous institution IS NOT bided by that. They DON'T have to follow that. They DON'T have to fill that entire 22.5 percent seats each year. They can leave all that seats unfilled. And no court, no government can question them. Because it is not illegal.
Does anybody have any idea how many seats are being left over like this in IITs each year? It is hardly 50 percent of the seats that are filled. 50 percent of the seats are not filled. Do you know the reason why? Because THEY decide some cutoff mark in the entrance exam and leave all the candidates below that mark.
If IIMs also become autonomous, I have no doubt, even the slightest one, the same situation is going to happen there too.
RE:Perils of autonomy
by PM on Dec 05, 2007 09:11 PM
My friend, Are you aware that even in the civil services examination in India, all the positions reserved for the disadvantages sections are not filled most of the time and these seats get rolled over for the next year. Now, the Government of India is not an "autonomous institute" as described by you above. Still it happens because there is a certain minimum level of requirement needed even for the government. IITs also have certain minimum level of requirement (much lower for the disadvantaged sections), and even you should agree that being a top institute of higher learning and being an institute of advanced studies they ought to have certain minimum requirement (which in reality is much lower than the general requirement). You won't expect them to admit just about anyone just because there happens to be a vacancy reserved. If some seats are left unfilled it is not because of some elite tyranny but because of the reasons mentioned above.
It is imperative that we make it clear what autonomy means. Your definition and understanding of autonomy looks rather skewed and paranoid. Autonomy does not mean tyranny, freedom from established rule of law. Even a government controlled organization can be autonomous yet abide by the laws of the land.
It would be interesting to know your thoughts on the responsibility (or the inability) of the government in the entire issue.
RE:Perils of autonomy
by Voiceinyourhead on Dec 05, 2007 10:06 PM
My dear friend,
The reply for your first point lies in your argument itself. Roll over. In Civil Services, the unfilled seats get rolled over for the next year and down the line those seats gets filled up. But it is not the case with autonomous institutes. The unfilled seats do not get rolled over.
There may be many perils of autonomy. Reservations%u2019 getting affected is one of them. The focus of my attention is that right now. I am sure there may be possibly many advantages for many different groups because of that autonomy. The responsibility of the government is to make sure the suppressed sections of the society get a fair deal. They have been suffering for too long. I believe the basic principle of any government is %u201Cnot to make rich the richer, it is to make poor the better%u201D.
As far as my knowledge goes, all the IIM seats get filled up for all categories every year. I took the IIT example because I can see your "elite tyranny" in its case as an evil of autonomy since IIT is already an autonomous institute. Government has got no say in whatever the administrative decisions the autonomous institutes take. The "senate" of these institutes makes those decisions. If the decision making baton moves to the hands of these "elite bosses", IIMs also follow the same path as IITs. I am afraid this is going to happen. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.
RE:Perils of autonomy
by PM on Dec 06, 2007 12:35 AM
You have made some good points though I had difficulty understanding how a corollary to my argument defeats the main point of my argument. However, we seem to be going into the nitty-gritty here. We can debate endlessly upon whether an issue like rolling over the unfilled seats is appropriate or offering reserved seats but not rolling them over is more appropriate. The bottom line is that in either case opportunity is being given to disadvantaged sections at a discounted level of minimum requirements. You also agree that despite being autonomous, IITs provide the statutory reservation in admissions. Being institutes of advanced learning in engineering I don't think it is objectionable if they require a minimum level of understanding from a person hoping to study an advanced subject. I don't see how not rolling over the seats make them any tyrannical.
If they make it autonomous and start paying professors on international level, their costs would be comparable to top western schools. How many of these students would still come to IIT/IIM when at the same cost, they can study in MIT/Harvard type schools?
First of all, please understand that the IIMs have been and still are government funded. The strength comes from the very high quality of students: NOT the faculty. Professors like Dr. Dholakia are not chosen based on merit or open competition. This should change: to facilitate the most talented academicians to direct the Schools. Then we can think of autonomy. Also, social causes are to be addressed. The present day bosses have no business to talk of autonomy of an institution established by Acts of Parliament.
RE:Autonomy for Whose Benefit?
by Kumaraswamy Pillay on Dec 05, 2007 02:18 AM
why should govt. discount the education of engineers and managers who are going to work for some MNC after they graduate. Why should tax payer money be wasted on these. Already 4-5% of the population only is paying tax to support rest of their country man. After accounting for our corrupt politicos and bureaucracy only rest should go towards nation development. IIMs, IITs and RECs have such a strong alumni network that they are perfectly capable of generating funding for themselves. But politicians will not do that as they can bring in reservation trump card and pander to the masses for votes. Such lowly creatures
RE:Autonomy for Whose Benefit?
by Dare on Dec 05, 2007 05:05 AM
I disagree with your point of subsidinzing the best for education only because they will go ahead and work for a MNC. My friend its the other way around. Companies will come to India because there is good talent and infrastructure available here. If government has to be enabler to this, so be it.If it has to be through subsidies to get the best talent, I will egg on to that. The problem is in folks who are forced to pay because they do not fall into the topmost talent and so cannot get into one of these subsidized schools.. Talent should win always my friend... no other quota system. At the same time, if the talent needs to be unearthed and that is a problem, then you may have to give reservations. I do agree though that the present system may not be unearthing the right talent in the backward caste folks (sorry to call them that.. BTW)
1. The reason why it is argued that teachers should make more is so that the profession becomes more attractive. In this way you get a wider and deeper pool of candidates than those people who can't get any other job, or who take it because of personal compulsions. Teaching has to be a viable career choice to attract the best, and an MBA course is no different. 2. Banks line up to give loans to IIM candidates. Collateral is more eyewash than anything else - any IIM admit who wants a loan will get a loan. 3. When you talk about allowing foreign universities into India, I'm all for it. But remember that the fees they charge will be far above what the IIMs charge. ISB - the only real private Indian competitor to the IIMs - charges around 18 lakhs/student. This fee is not all-inclusive, so the end cost is far higher. Foreign institutes will charge a much higher fee. 4. IIM's lose money on each candidate in the 2-yr PGP course. 5. To reiterate, remember that just like companies, colleges also need to compete for talent - both students and faculty. If the IIMs want to compete with universities around the world for students, they need to show that they have the faculty to match. In order to get world-class faculty, they need to have the freedom to pay the required amount. It's criminal that even though the IIMs are prepared to fund themselves, the govt is preventing them from increasing salaries.
RE:To all commentors - Get the facts right
by Sathish on Dec 04, 2007 05:48 PM
Hi Senthil: All of what you say is correct. We obviously agree. Can you kindly let us know what you mean by speculation on not fact in the below discussion? Frankly, I don't see any unreasonable speculation below.
Of the 3 issues of MBA degrees, reservation and location, the first one is the least important. The last one is the most. Which bschool professor if he is in his senses would work in Shillong and Kozhikode.. His children should go to good schools and his wife should get decent work and he should be able to fly internationally and host seminars with international dignatories.. How many direct connections exist between Shillong-Kozhikode and Delhi/Mumbai, leave alone international flights.. How many five star hotels are there?
Ridiculous decisions. On a saner note, problems afflicting IIMs are not just peculiar to IITs and IIMs but are characteristic of the entire Indian higher education system. Hundred year old Universities in Mumbai and Madras are unfortunately performing so badly in research/teaching that one can only be sad about it.
God save indian academicians. > It is time to earn money from share market, for free guideline : 'share market plus . com '
RE:comments...
by Jagan P James on Dec 04, 2007 07:36 PM
thats a very wrong choice dude.. Location has nothing to do with it., atleast lesser of the evils.. Have you been to Kozhikode or Shillong. Just because you havent heard the place, it doesnt mean anything, or atleast since you say of international connectivity, 5 start hotels, have you atleast ever seen on map the famous, international business schools..
I too agree with the fact that among the three issues raised by author location is probably hitting them most. For premier institutes like IIMs and other reputed B-schools( not other universities) its very important to attract the very best talent. Its only disheartening to learn that cities like Mumbai ( financial capital) , Delhi etc are devoid of such institutes(brand IIM). They need to integrate with the industries and corporate world much more than what they are doing now. Also, most institutes have to run on guest lectures which can't be found in smaller cities. India's USP is its 'talent'. I am afraid what makes Govt short of supplying funds for nurturing them. They can even consider b-schools like IIMs as an 'investment opportunity' which can very well give the money back in due course of time. More investment and reservation should be made at secondary school level to nurture more students who are competing and 'employable'. The Govt however forgets this somehow. They create premium schools at far-off locations with pathetic secondary level education at those places. Hopefully with major investment been announced in education sector the conditions would improve with right direction of concentration.
RE:Location is very important for premier schools
by ASHOK on Dec 04, 2007 01:07 PM
fact remains that we need to integrate eastern states so we need something good at Shillong so is the case with Kozhikode.
But as far as private sector is concerned, they should be free to make most and come up fast anywhere in India.
Currently we need to open up things for India private sector.
Govt has a social obligation let it go to Leh / ladakh / or Mizoram.
Those who do not get jobs elsewhere let them join at these places. No one should object to it.
But Govt should allow demand and supply to match in top rated cities. Since Govt does not have money as well as political will to do that , atleast it can make a policy and a frame work for educational institutes with foreign collaboration to come up any where they want to come up.
RE:Location is very important for premier schools
by saurabh singh on Dec 04, 2007 01:36 PM
I agree that govt needs to integrate far-off regions but that should happen at lower level and not at higher level. for that case, the new IIM- shillong would hardly have any students from north-east because they cant cope up with the competition just because they didn't got good primary education. govt should integrate all regions with good quality and cheap education at primary levels rather than trying to control premier institutes who have learnt to run on themselves.
RE:Location is very important for premier schools
by lotus hfjdh on Dec 04, 2007 02:42 PM
whether IIM is at shillong or Bangalore, companies will go to every cornerof the world to hire talents...when IIT kharagpur was set-up, even that place was a remote place...so the debate on this topic is absurd..
RE:One may call them India Elite BUT .....
by lotus hfjdh on Dec 04, 2007 02:47 PM
I don't understand that why semi-autonomous IIMs dont even get ranked in top 300 universities of world...Atleast IISc is a better example which is not even semi-autonomous and ranks higher than IIMs...
RE:One may call them India Elite BUT .....
by Giridhar on Dec 04, 2007 03:40 PM
dont worry about the rankings - it is not a reflection on the IIM's but on the way the ranking is done. it is based on a survey and is totally skewed towards the US institutes, for obvious reasons. do not disregard the importance of commercial interests in these rankings, though it may seem absurd to suggest this.
RE:One may call them India Elite BUT .....
by asheesh shrivastava on Dec 04, 2007 05:26 PM
why not its true that not even a single university come in top 100 university of world.you mean to say osaka and kyoto,tokyo university belongs to US
RE:One may call them India Elite BUT .....
by Yazooman on Dec 04, 2007 06:45 PM
What a stupid line of discussion.
Firstly these rankings are never foolproof. Ever analysed these ranking methodologies?
Secondly, the educational institutions in the West excel in research while we don't. The reason especially in the field of business is because largely the Indian business world is not yet that "mature" or "groundbreaking" in its management practices. For example, how many homegrown hedge funds do we have in India? How much R&D is done by Indian companies in Supply Chain Mgmt? How much of trading in India by Indians is done through algorithmic trading?
The fact remains that MNCs customise their practices for India and Indian companies often follow techniques borrowed from the west.
IIMs are fairly good at pedagogy though they have more than their share of poor teachers. Where they really suffer from is the lack of industry maturity in India. It is the same reason why we don't have large successful software or hardware product companies in India - the customers these companies will have to sell to have to be companies in India. You can't sit and research in India and sell to the West. And few Indian companies will invest in start-ups (though that mindset is changing albeit slowly).
~ From some one who spent 2 years in an "elite" institution.
