Discussion on Live update: NZ win toss, bat first

For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 01:42 AM | Hide replies

So you think only sachin has scored for india in the past 2-3 years in odi?

2008 sachin 12 matches 12 innings once not out 460 runs average 41.81 strike rate 84.24 100s: 1 50s: 3
sachin average without nots out 38.33

2008 dhoni 29 matches 26 innings 7 times not out 1097 runs strike rate 82.29 100s: 1 50s: 8
dhoni average without not outs 42.19

2009 sachin 21 matches 20 innings twice not out 972 runs average 54.00 strike rate 94.00 100s: 3 50s: 3
sachin average without not outs 48.6

2009 dhoni 29 matches 24 innings 7 times not out 1198 runs average 70.47 strike rate 85.57 100s: 2 50s: 9
dhoni average without not outs 49.91

2010 sachin 2 matches 2 innings once not out 204 runs strike rate 134.21 100s: 1 50s: 0
played too few one days to take any meaningful average without not outs 100s: 1 50s: 0

2010 dhoni 13 matches 12 innings 3 times not out 462 runs average 51.33 strike rate 87.16 100s:1 50s: 2
dhoni average without not outs 38.50 100s: 1 50s: 2

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Re: For Sameer
by Against Pseudos on Aug 11, 2010 05:30 AM
Vaidya:

Average "without not outs" ... a new era in statistical analysis arrives... :)

Next will be "Sachin's average excluding matches in which he scored more than 63", "Dhoni's average excluding matches in which he was runout", "Sachin's average excluding matches in which there were at least two people in the third row of spectators who wore light blue T-shirts", etc. etc. :)

But you are right... Sachin is a useless player, as can be seen by his pathetic performance in the opening match in the Tri-series... :)

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Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sameer on Aug 11, 2010 06:18 AM
HEy PSeudos ,

I already ushered in another new era. With the Help of Vaidya, I bet this would be the new rave.

Hold your breath

Analysis of player performance based on days of the week !

Stay tuned for more!

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Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 11:49 AM
Pseudo:
you will not change your spots will you? Average “without not outs”. May be a new era in statistical analysis has arrived according to you. In simple terms I only meant that even if dhoni had never remained not out even once in all the innings he played, still he has got a very good average … :)
even given the fact the sachin opens the batting most of the times (when dhoni is captain it is always, because dhoni knows that sachin can play only in that position and not so good in any other position (at the maximum 3rd position, no position else) Sachin can contribute maximum in only that position and has no ability to play well in any other position so if dhoni wants to get maximum out of sachin he has no choice but to send sachin at the top of the innings, he is of no use to dhoni or to india in any other batting position) and has all the time in the world to plan his innings, while most of the time dhoni comes very down in the order when not always too many runs of the target are left or not too many overs or wickets are remaining. Still inspite of all the limitations of his batting position dhoni has an incredible record because of his staggering consistency. People try to run him down saying that his record appears good only because of inflated average created by not outs. But as I have shown above that is not so. Even without his not outs he has a very good average of runs scored per innings

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Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 11:53 AM
Even without his not outs he has a very good average of runs scored per innings (even considering the fact that he comes down the order most of the times).
Imagine if he gets the opportunity to bat to his full potential, that is if he can get a chance to bat till he gets out most of the time, (like sachin gets a chance) dhoni’s total tally of runs will increase by so many that even without any not out against his name to inflate his average he will still average 50 plus.
He has already showed how good he is as a odi batsman by completing 5000 odi runs faster than sachin (i.e. required less innings than sachin to complete the landmark)
But I think you understand all this, don’t you? I think you are not so much a fool that you make out yourself to be, but only acting the fool. Or am I wrong in giving you that much credit? :)

As you cannot argue against the above figures that I have given you have no choice than to resort as usual to sarcasm like different ways of funny analysis possibilities that you have pointed out yourself :)

I have never said sachin is useless. but if you want to admit that according to your opinion sachin is a useless odi batsman i have no objection. i respect your right to have a opinion. :)

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Re: For Sameer
by Venkatachalam on Aug 11, 2010 06:07 AM
The details provided are helpful. Please remember that while Sachin comes regularly in a fixed position Dhoni chooses his position which is generally when things are comfortable for him. Anyway where is the comparison between a master and a pupil.

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Re: For Sameer
by Sameer on Aug 11, 2010 06:16 AM
@Vaidya

Great non refutable analysis. The analysis you made is amazing. I bet no one would even think of making such analysis. I bet you get compliments on your analytical and logical reasoning skills a lot.

Do you have the analysis of how much sachin scores, if the match is held on certain day of the week as well ? For example if the ODI is held on sunday, whats sachin's avg score at that position etc ?

Also , do you have the chart of how much Dhobi scores when the match is held at a particular day ?

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Re: Re: For Sameer
by DoubleLarge on Aug 11, 2010 08:41 AM
You seem to be missing the point...when not out innings get ignored the average of the batsman comes down...Sunil is trying to highlight that despite ignoring not outs,the average is still better. Batsmen like MSD who come lower down,their average could get boosted by not outs...

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Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 12:36 PM
thanks DoubleLarge for your understanding and appreciation.

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Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sameer on Aug 11, 2010 09:08 AM
so what happens when someone is not out batting at number 1/2/3 ?

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Re: Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 12, 2010 10:56 AM
sameer, i only meant that when some one who remains not out batting at number 1/2/3 just consider that that score was made not as a not out but as a completed innings.

get it into your thick head that i dont mean that ignore the not out innings i only meant you treat it as a completed innings because otherwise you think that the average is inflated.

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Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 01:46 PM
Sameer, are you really so slow that you really cannot understand what I am saying. Arpit patel and Arvin g seem to be better than you and pseudo, because after reading my post they immediately started to abuse me. They did not have to ask me what do you mean, because they immediately understood my point. You are using your imagination overtime working out various possibilities of analysis.
You do not understand what I mean by my concept of average without not outs. Simply put it means the number of runs a player scores per innings. i.e. simply dividing total no. of runs scored by the no. of innings that player played and not worrying about how many times that player got out or remained nto out. You seem to be studying in some school (either primary or secondary) So I will try to explain it to you according to you level of intelligence. I will explain it to you in very simple terms like I explained it to C M.

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Re: Re: For Sameer
by sunil vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 01:41 PM
Sameer, are you really so slow that you really cannot understand what I am saying. Arpit patel and Arvin g seem to be better than you and pseudo, because after reading my post they immediately started to abuse me. They did not have to ask me what do you mean, because they immediately understood my point. You are using your imagination overtime working out various possibilities of analysis.
You do not understand what I mean by my concept of average without not outs. Simply put it means the number of runs a player scores per innings. i.e. simply dividing total no. of runs scored by the no. of innings that player played and not worrying about how many times that player got out or remained nto out. You seem to be studying in some school (either primary or secondary) So I will try to explain it to you according to you level of intelligence. I will explain it to you in very simple terms like I explained it to C M.

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Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 01:43 PM
OK Sameer, Here goes-

if you really dont understand what is average without not outs i will try to explain it to you.

lets take a hypothetical example. suppose dhoni's stats are as follows:
dhoni: played 12 matches 9 innings 450 runs 3 times not out. then his normal average will be 450 runs divided by 6 innings (played 9 innings -3 not out=6) the average will be 75 runs. (got it this far?) now people will start to say that he has inflated average because of not outs. so i will ignore the not outs. suppose he got out all the 9 innings in which he played. so now lets calculate his average again. that will be the total number of runs he scored that is 450 divided by the no. of innings he played that is 9 (remember he did not remain not out in any innings?) now the average comes out to be 50 runs.

now do you get what i mean? his average of 75 runs is his normal average which people say is inflated because of not out innings. so i remove the not outs. now he is out for all the 9 innings he played. his new average is 50 runs. this average of 50 runs is what i call is his average without not outs. now do you understand? (I hope you do, because i dont think that i am capable of explaining to anybody below this level of intelligence.)

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Re: Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sameer on Aug 11, 2010 06:11 PM
@Sunil Vaidya ,

Yes, I have no clue about what averages mean and what not outs mean. Thanks for providing me the valuable lesson in 7th grade mathematics.

It never occured to me that not outs can be kept aside . I mean we can totaly ignore the notouts a batsman gets when he opens the innings or comes one /two down. Yes, thats not the true value of his innings. T

We need to calculate the innings when he got out. Thats his true average. How brilliant of you to come up with this concept ? Amazing world class concept. If India had more of you people, I wonder where we would be

Truly a new era of statistics has arrived !

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Re: Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 01:51 PM
Sameer, I would like to mention that one way of looking at not outs is that it inflates average. Other way to look at it is that it also means that the concerned player did not get to bat to his full potential. He would have added immensely to his total tally of runs if he could get as many chances to bat till he gets out like many other batsmen.
Dhoni has made more than 5000 odi runs. He also completed these 5000 runs faster than sachin. i.e. dhoni required less no. of innings to get to that mark. Surely that tells us how good dhoni is as a batsman. And that if he is regarded as no.1 odi batsmen by many people it is not with out a very good reason.
If dhoni gets the chance to bat till he gets out for most of the times (like sachin and sehwag get that chance) he will add so many runs to his total tally of runs that without any not out innings his average will be 50 plus.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sameer on Aug 12, 2010 07:07 PM
Ok, you should have clarified that. Ok not ignoring the not out innings does sound fine.

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Re: For Sameer
by C M on Aug 11, 2010 02:55 AM
Why dont u write email to Sameer instead of writing all crap stats here ...SRT is not even in this match and this post is about one day whcih Ind lost heavily under Dhoni captancy..If u hate SRT its fine wriet a book on that...But is it necessary to make a show of your insanity publically...And wht is avg without not outs...there is no such thing...go to basics...How abt stats dropped catches by Dhoni those resulted into matches loss..go find it out...

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Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 12:29 PM
C M, why should i write email to sameer? he has written on this forum and i am answering him on this forum. if he emails me i will email him. and i have not written any crap stats.

Also i do not hate sachin. tell me one sentence of mine through which you came to that conclusion. though you do seem to hate dhoni. and the way you have reacted to my post any sane person will see that it is you who is showing his insanity publically by showing that you have not understood what i have said.

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Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 12:33 PM
if you really dont understand what is average without not outs i will try to explain it to you.

lets take a hypothetical example. suppose dhoni's stats are as follows:
dhoni: played 12 matches 9 innings 450 runs 3 times not out. then his normal average will be 450 runs divided by 6 innings (played 9 innings -3 not out=6) the average will be 75 runs. (got it this far?) now people will say that he has inflated average because of not outs. so i will ignore the not outs. suppose he got out all the 9 innings in which he played. so now lets calculate his average again. that will be the total number of runs he scored that is 450 divided by the no. of innings he played that is 9 (remember he did not remain not out in any innings?) now the average comes out to be 50 runs.

now do you get what i mean? his average of 75 runs is his normal average which people say is inflated because of not out innings. so i remove the not outs. now he is out for all the 9 innings he played. his new average is 50 runs. this average of 50 runs is what i call is his average without not outs. now do you understand? (Please say you do, because i dont think that i am capable of explaining to anybody below this level of intelligence.)

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Re: Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sameer on Aug 11, 2010 06:13 PM
@Sunil Vaidya ,

Yes, I have no clue about what averages mean and what not outs mean. Thanks for providing me the valuable lesson in 7th grade mathematics.

It never occurred to me that not outs can be kept aside . I mean we can totally ignore the not-outs a batsman gets when he opens the innings or comes one /two down. Yes, thats not the true value of his innings.

We need to calculate the innings when he got out. Thats his true average. How brilliant of you to come up with this concept ? Amazing world class concept. If India had more of you people, I wonder where we would be

Truly a new era of statistics has arrived !

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sameer on Aug 12, 2010 07:14 PM
@sunil. I didn't read rest of your posts after the 1st one, because I didn't deem it worthy of being read. In fact I haven't even read your posts even now. I read the 1st sentence where you mentioned " you are not ignoring not outs" and realised what you were trying to indicate.

Unfortunately for you, your first post did sound stupid. Hence that made your remainder of the posts not worthy of a read.

But anyways, yes the openers get 50 overs to bat, but they also are dealing with seaming deliveries and fresh bowlers and fielders as opposed to after 20-30 overs later.

The opener doesn't really have lot of scope for making mistakes because players are fresh at that point of time. So while it is easier to hit runs in the 1st 10-15 overs, its also as easy to get out in that period. Also the batting powerplay is taken around the 35 over onwards which does mean that there would be other players that can take advantage. So either ways, there are flips sides at each end

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For Sameer
by Sunil Vaidya on Aug 11, 2010 10:00 PM
sameer, i am totally confused. i cannot make any sense of your above post. i am really very dumb. please tell me in simple terms whether you understood what i meant or not. or do you still consider that he is a useless batsman and has contributed nothing to the indian total. dhoni has scored more than sachin in lesser innings than him. that much i have showed you. i hope you at least get that. you go on shouting that not outs have inflated his average. i have shown that the no. of runs he scores per innings is also impressive. and is almost equal to sachin even though he gets fewer balls to bat than sachin. sachin being an opener always has 50 overs and first 15 overs of powerplay before him when he comes to bat and plan his innings accordingly. not so with dhoni. he usually comes when the first 15 overs are gone and so is the chance of scoring quick runs in the powerplay that sachin always gets. inspite of this disadvantage he has proven to be as good as sachin which is simply amazing.

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