try to push safron history into the minds of students will deal with inconvenient archeaological and literary evidences!
For example, how would they deal with the fact that the horse (the much celebrated 'ashwa' that appears in a number of instances in hyndu scriptures in the epics, in the Upanishads, the Geeta, the various samhitas, the shastras....everywhere) first appeared in the Indian sub-continent only in the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE (the oldest horse fossil found in India dates to about 1600 BCE)!
Wonder how the safronisers will deal with the fact that horse fossils dating to the 2nd and 1st millennia BCE in the Hindukush mountain ranges and the Indo-gangetic plains bear marks of violence !
Wonder how the safronisers of Indian history will deal with the latest genome sequencing studies conducted by anthropologists from the Iowa state university, the Andhra university and numerous other academic groups (which also drew part of their references from the Human Genome project) that establish that there has been very heavy intermingling of various raxces and sub-raxces in the sub-continent and particularly in the northern part of the sub-continent through the last 4 to 5 millennia!
The safronisers - even serious ones who proclaim that their arguments are based purely on merit - keep trying to limit the discourse on these facts to the perspective given by the 19th century Indologist, Max Mueller. The latter did not have the tools that modern
Re: Wonder how those who
by piri on Jul 28, 2014 08:16 AM
anthropologists and geneticists have and based his hypotheses on archeological and literary evidences alone. He never actually suggested that there was a single stage invasion that came to be known as the 'Aryan invasion'. It was never a single stage affair. And it was never uniformly violent or cataclysmic.
Wonder how safronisers will try to convince those anthropologists and geneticists and the historians analysing each of the increasing quantum of evidences about the relatively more homogenous nature of Indian society they are trying to make everyone believe in !
Re: Re: Wonder how those who
by krishna v on Jul 28, 2014 09:05 AM
I guess you are off the mark. They are calling for change of education system not history alone or science along. No one talked about genes here
Re: Re: Re: Wonder how those who
by Farooq Khan on Jul 28, 2014 09:27 AM
Krishna, So you mean to say they (RSS) is willing to clean River Ganges essentially by not cleaning its water??? O.o
Re: Re: Re: Wonder how those who
by piri on Jul 28, 2014 09:42 AM
I guess you are completely unaware of what the BJP led NDA tried to do to change Indian history during its term in power earlier.
I guess you are completely unaware of where the RSS lays stress in terms of education!
Read about these matters in some detail and then we can have a debate if you wish.
Re: Wonder how those who
by sri on Jul 28, 2014 10:41 AM
In a better way than you crusaders and evangelists deal with it. The horse issue is outdated because horse remains have been found at multiple strata suggesting that horses were not new to people here and in fact were present even before they reached mesopotamia. You are also wrong about the genetic evidence. Cite me the specific study that supports a "heavy" intermingling. The latest definitive study from a well known gp in Hyderabad actually talks about a two prototypical Indians who arose many tens of thousand (not 2 or 3!) of years ago who gave rise to the present day Indians. No skeletal differences are found between people of present day punjab and Gujarat and those of the Indus valley indicating no invasion. etc etc.
Re: Re: Wonder how those who
by piri on Jul 28, 2014 02:28 PM
Horse issue is outdated?
How can any evidence become outdated unless contradicted by other evidences?
So, what did you find out about the history of the horse in the sub continent?
And horse remains have been found at multiple strata?
Will you say with references whether they have been found in the bronze age strata as well?
So, when did the iron age begin in India?
The horse arrived in India before it did in Mesopotamia?
What are your references for saying this?
Are the horse remains you refer to really those of horses or of asxses or the thing called Onagers (half asxses)?
What about the main evidence that bursts the carefully built up and labouriously sustained myth that the Vedic age subsumes the Indus valley civilisation - the Indus valley one was entirely urban in character (completely so and in this at least, there is no difference of opinion between historians of various hues) while the Vedas (all the four ones) have only pastoral/rural societies pictured in them?
And raxcial intermingling?
Read what Specer Wells has written in his The journey of Man; a genetic odyssey (2002). Read Michael D Pertaglia in his The evolution and history of humans in South Asia (2007).
All these works (and several others too) derive their references from several large sample studies of the Mitochondrial DNA (maternal DNA) and genome sequencing of hundreds of Indian sub-communities and compare them with those of other populations worldwide.
Re: Re: Re: Wonder how those who
by piri on Jul 28, 2014 02:36 PM
As other works - both by Indian as well as western scholars - argue, migrations in batches of various sizes into the sub-continent from the north west (and from other directions also though to lesser extents) were routine for tens of thousands of years. Broadly, the negritos from the African coast came first, followed by Australoids, then by numerous groups from the Central Asian regions who are often called the Indo-Europeans.
Linguistic evidence points to continuous assimilation in Indian languages.
By the way, I am neither a crusader (do they exist now?) nor an evangelist!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Wonder how those who
by sri on Jul 28, 2014 06:13 PM
All that is immaterial and irrelevant and I know already how early humans migrated. We are talking here about a civilization which settled long long after the initial migrations happened.
You do comment like a crusader would. Yes, they do exist in attitudes!
Re: Re: Re: Wonder how those who
by sri on Jul 28, 2014 06:08 PM
Dont give me outdated references going back to 2002. Give me recent (2008 and later) genetic studies that support your statement that "heavy" intermingling happened.
Re: Wonder how those who
by Vijayan Malliyoor on Jul 28, 2014 10:41 AM
History depends up on the historian's personal perceptions which may not be always correct! Let us leave the 'Aryan' angle for the time being. Unlike our neighbour Pakistan which is a Muslim country, India is secular country and every citizen is treated as equal irrespective of his religious/caste status. No political party should be allowed to destroy the secular fabrics of our great country!
Taxes collected from kaafirs are used to fund madarsas, pay imam salaries and for haj houses and haj subsidy. All this is secular. The peace book which is filled with hatred of kaafirs is taught to impressionable young children at the cost of kaafirs. But teaching of Vedas and Upanishads is communal.
Re: Re: Madarsa funding and imam salaries
by Farooq Khan on Jul 28, 2014 09:31 AM
Make it optional. what the fuss is all about? But the real problem is RSS forces down everything (Remember Chapati episode), whether you are interested or not it will be force-fed to you. G.O.O.N.S.!
Re: Re: Re: Madarsa funding and imam salaries
by rajesh kumar on Jul 28, 2014 09:44 AM
ISIS has already invited all Indian Muslims to come to come to their Caliphate. You have been invited. You can go. I will buy you a one way ticket.
Is it not a prior mind set by some media / agencies? 1. What is saffronisation? 2. Why it is bad for India? 3. It is a private , non gov't agency. 4. What will be the report of the committee. 5. How Gov't / Parliament & general public will react to the report? 6. The very thinking that committee is formed by RSS, the report will always be bad for India?? How far it is correct way to diagnose the problem. 7. Fact is an effort has been made by some group. This should have been made by Gov't. But during the rule of previous gov'ts in 67 years of independence but it was never done.And this has led so much division & distortion in society. 8. Should it not be tackled?
Re: Saffronisation of education
by Farooq Khan on Jul 28, 2014 09:34 AM
Goel Sab! We are all used to see goondagiri of RSS now how come RSS will become Munnabhai please explain (Merits of RSS if any)?
our future generations will see Gandhiji as a non contributor and Godse as a hero. They will skew up history and make a few heroes out of zeroes. All fictitious characters will be included. A country with fictitious history will be lost in a few years. The world will see us as a bunch of hypocrites.
Re: so what is this saffornization all about...
by Ravi PV on Jul 28, 2014 08:03 AM
All these years we lost because we were worshipping false gods like gaan diji, neeru ji etc etc who were rank hypocrites. But thanks to rapid advancement of communication technology the secularists can longer fool the gullible citizens of our country.
Re: so what is this saffornization all about...
by Yogheendran on Jul 28, 2014 08:03 AM
So what if a true patriotic and nationalist organisation with its selfless service to the nation wants to correct the distorted history of this great nation made by the colonial forces to keep them and their chamchas alive?
Re: Re: so what is this saffornization all about...
by Farooq Khan on Jul 28, 2014 09:36 AM
true patriotic hahaha Malegaon Blast & Mecca Masjid blast makers are true patriotic hahaha! HISTORYKIABMAAKICHHUTHOGI!
Re: Re: Re: so what is this saffornization all about...
by rajesh kumar on Jul 28, 2014 09:47 AM
Why do you remember only 2 blasts. What about other blasts by the followers of religion of peace.
Re: so what is this saffornization all about...
by sangeetha on Jul 28, 2014 09:18 AM
If India got freedom because of Gandhiji, how come all other asian countries got freedom at the same time ?
A country that forgets its history will also be lost. We are already learning a lot of false history. Aryan invasion theory is still taught in India when internationally historians have already accepted it was a mistake.
Many time from the quaters of Sangha Parivar it has been proved that RSS has caped mind and ideology! They want to develop RSS and occupy the the power only without any aim. They do not want the growth of the nation or may be they don't have idea so on but they should remember that this time people of India voted "MODI SARKAR" not BJP.
