Public don’t easily trust words of Government or Media, in this case rebels might come out with some transcript claiming that, it’s the evidence that Government did it.
Their sales pitch might be that, if you believe that we got capacity to bring down Airplanes at cruising height, then you also got to believe that we can eavesdrop and tape Government conversation, ‘Why so selective about our capabilities?’
To prove that Government is serious about its claims, they might have to stop almost all of their Military flights in the rebel held area, because it’s highly risky or almost certain suicide to fly Aircraft in the area of such a capable rival.
But if almost all flights are stopped then rebels will get free hand to reinforce their positions and do whatever they like.
Anyway land is an immovable asset and conflict about it can get very bitter and dirty, as option of simply running away with it and hiding is not available.
For land disputes, if all parties agree then first option is to have democratic referendum or Vote, next option is contest with force and rule is simple, ‘until you can hold it, you can keep it’.
Until one or both parties think they can get it all by force, negotiations won’t happen or will be failure, successful negotiations only happen when both parties think they might not get it all or risk loosing everything and making a deal is the best option.
Re: After the cases like Iraq war Intelligence..
by Kanu Singh on Jul 19, 2014 04:22 AM
I think its not necessary to have next option as use of Force, if people cannot agree on one party taking all land with voting or referendum, they can make a deal to share land, or exchange land with movable assets.
It’s not necessary that people got to sit down for making a deal after they beat each other blue and black.
I am really amazed . som people want everyone to come to reality and think rationally. At the same time they tell not to look at it through prism of oil or dominance. Well if you really want ground reality it is all about oil and dominance of world.
And what Russia is doing accession of Crimea has historical significance and democratic backing from ppl. But what USA doing meddling with Syria, arabsprings , Indian ocean , siding with Japan against China where they dont ven exist
Re: am amazed
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 12:44 PM
Take ny advice. Tell your Egytian, Iranian, Syrian friends to worry about the period when oil is going to become redundant. Believe me, it's just 30-40 years away.
Re: Re: am amazed
by goodsamirtan on Jul 18, 2014 12:48 PM
You forgetting that our friends are Iran,Russia,Syria, Japan and soome south east Asian nations.
You forgot USA pumping Pakistan against india by giving weapons or when our hijacked flight was supposed to land in Saudi how USA backed Saudi completely ignored India request
Re: Re: Re: am amazed
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 01:08 PM
Being friendly has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. On discussion boards we have to analyse issues as they are without bringing in "national interest". I hope you are not trying to run Indian Foreign Ministry from this discussion board.
In the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, it's Ukraine who is the aggrieved party.
Russia has usurped Crimea forcefully. It is now trying to usurp other parts of Ukraine on the ground that they have Russian speaking people in majority. Ukraine is NOT getting any "overt" support militarily from NATO or any western country so far.
It's not Western countries here who want change in status quo. Russia is using military might against Ukraine covertly.
Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by Cheran on Jul 18, 2014 08:02 PM
Vijay, You need to go through the history and understand the reasons for Russian grievance. When was crimea given to Ukraine, USA's unterior mottos to corner Russias rising, present state of former Yugosovia (I have visited most disintegrated Yugoslovia and have extensive interaction with most nationals), USA tactics in Europe etc etc need to be understood bef delivering a conclusion.US hidden agenda could not be sold to Russia, this is simple.
Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 12:02 PM
If Pakistan is US & We are russia, whom do you support for LOK? or If Pakistan ir Russia and we are US, who do you support?
Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by goodsamirtan on Jul 18, 2014 12:07 PM
Russia used military might after local Crimean govt democratically agreed to side with Russia.
Compare this with USA fockkng Syria Arab springs irq afghan without even asking anyone
Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 12:12 PM
That's the logic which Pakistan uses against Indian in relation to Pakistan and THAT is the reason Israel re-settles Jews in Palestinian areas.
In democratic countries you cannot seceede just because majority people want to on ethnic grounds. if one were to follow that principle, it would be very easy for countries to create turmoil in neighbouring countries with the intention of usurping precious land.
Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 12:13 PM
That's the logic which Pakistan uses against India in relation to Kashmir and THAT is the reason Israel re-settles Jews in Palestinian areas.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 12:19 PM
Logic is based on reasons to believe. Reasons to believe are created through senses. Actual issue in Crimea can be different from what is projected in media. Same wit Israel. Same with Indo - Pak border. We in India, show bad about pak thru media. Pak does the same. It is always the dumb common man who keeps hatred inside. I want Kashmir..easy to say, until you are not in power, Once in power, Kashmir goes to diplo mode. Power speaks less, lack of power speaks more...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by goodsamirtan on Jul 18, 2014 12:23 PM
Rajesh these pseudo arm chair critics like sahani and some jatin will always side with biggest power . biggest power is USA now. They will never think rationally. And they brand us what they want
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 12:24 PM
Israel 're settles' as long as we learn thru media. Israel cause suffering if we live there. There are always 2 sides atleast plus a may be. Why only 1 need be projected? because it was to satisfy my requirement that, 'i must win'
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 12:26 PM
I'm amazed by your quality to believe in imaginary conspiracy stories and not in down to earth, rational, reality.
Of course, both India and Pakistan have their motives which may be different from that projected in media.
All i'm saying is that when you start using the principle of secession based on ethnic grounds you are creating a situation where real motives can be cloaked behind human rights issues for ulterior motive. That is what Pakistan is doing and that is what Russia is doing.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 12:26 PM
Dear Rediff ji, forgot the main thing. Please be as much impartial to news feeds. Not intending its not like that. But hoping rediff to be slightly different from other masala portals. I know commercial implications, viewership and quaility of viewers who want what sort of stuffs etc. do matter. But just a humble request.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 12:28 PM
goodsamirtan, its ok. All know these debates mean nothin. Just spend some fun time. No bad words used mutually so far. aaila. Its far better. earlier, asterisks used to come.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 12:30 PM
@ Vijay, Russia and pak mean nothing for my quality of living. Neither do modiji, sonia ji, bjp, commies etc. Got to go. Thanks for nice time
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 12:30 PM
You are contradicting yourself. You have justified Russian accession of crimea on the grounds of "majority vote" but say Kashmir acceeded to india. Well, Crimea too was part of Ukraine until recently. What history are you talking about. 25 years old? 100 years old? or 1000 years old?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by goodsamirtan on Jul 18, 2014 05:05 PM
Russian accession of Crimea can be backed on grounds of majority vote as well as its historic association of Russia.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by goodsamirtan on Jul 18, 2014 05:09 PM
Where have I contradicted when I said the following
Since Kashmir belongs to India in the past when kings aceeded to us , no matter what ethnicity Kashmir is ours. Same way Crimea historically belongs to Russia. No matter if it is Russians or Ukrainians living there. So Crimea belongs to Russia !" And by the way ethically and historically both ways Crimea accession is justified
Re: Ukraine is the aggrieved party
by Dipak Bose on Jul 20, 2014 06:14 PM
History Lesson: The entire area from Odessa to Kharkov was given to Ukraine in 1920 by Lenin, although most prople were Russian. It was not important. It was not important then as if some parts of Madhya Pradesh will be given to Uttar Pradesh. Similarly in 1954, Crimea was given to Ukraine by Kruschev. It was not important either, as both were states within a country. crimea was always Russian.
There is no significant diferrence between Ukranians and Russians as they speak the same language (Ukranian is spoken by a minority) and intermarry over centuries. USA has created this crisis for its own interest to destroy Russia.
I'm amazed that some people don't believe what is staring them in the face and cook up conspiracy theories just to keep themselves in delusion.
They think intercepted conversations can be cooked but their theory that "USA backed" Ukraine shot down the plane so that Russia does not invade Ukraine thereby safeguarding Ukrainian oil from Russia is a plausible theory!!! Amazing!
Re: I'm amazed
by jatin joshipura on Jul 18, 2014 11:47 AM
any invasion of Ukraine by russia is in any case would be deemed illegal and bound to lead to more sanctions against Russia by west
Re: Re: I'm amazed
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 11:48 AM
I know actually, US is nice. The problem is always the oil. bad oil. I hate all oils. All oils are bad. I see kaangies and commies behind oil. Ban oil.
Re: Re: Re: I'm amazed
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 11:51 AM
It's not others who are looking at things with one ideology. it's actually you who is looking at everything from the prisim of Oil.
Re: Re: Re: I'm amazed
by rajesh on Jul 18, 2014 11:55 AM
Hmmm. US is nice. A few top rated politicians doesn't make a country. Feminine politicos always fight for agendas. country is its citizens and their quality. If all are against Russia, i decided to support it. When all go against US, i may support it as well. Being like water is better than being a stone which rolls for no apparent reason.
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm amazed
by Vijay Sahani on Jul 18, 2014 12:01 PM
Good defence of your irrational arguments. But irrational they are all said and done.
Re: I'm amazed
by cattamanchi chaitanya on Jul 18, 2014 11:52 AM
well that is a good theory right .. While the world's attention has got diverted to this incident , Israel silently launched its ground invasion of Gaza which is USA backed ..
