Re: Egypt burn in dissent
by Axe NChor on Jan 29, 2011 08:18 PM
I had been to Egypt 6 years back...Egyptians never liked Hosni...Even people with the same name (Hosni) wanted them not to be referred as "Hosni Mubarak" even as we tried to find a light hearted way of calling. They permitted us to give them bad words but not call them "Hosni Mubarak". These revolts are a manifestation of long standing dissent with the ruler.
30 years is a long duration...High time they have a new democratic leader
Re: Egypt burn in dissent
by aaaa bbbb on Jan 29, 2011 07:57 AM
like iran the terroists will take over and start killing women seeking religeous freedom..
Re: Egypt burn in dissent
by Me Patel on Jan 28, 2011 02:41 PM
In your eyes, for everything to happen US is responsible. Do something on your own someday
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All the very best to the people of Egypt in their heroic struggle against Hosni Mubarak - an authoritarian dictator.
Religion should not form the basis of a nation state as it eventually leads to a feudal theocratic dictatorship. Those suppressing the will of the people in the name of religion are ultimately people with feet of clay, have no right to suppress democratic freedom and the human need for equal opportunities irrespective of all other affiliations.
The conflagration ignited by the Tunisian revolt should spread through the entire long suppressed Muslim world. The people of these countries must establish within their respective country's a plural, secular and democratic state with a strong institutional structure. This is not easy to do for the sway the fanatics enjoy, but this struggle would be meaningless if these fanatics are not blown off with the winds of change gushing thru the muslim world - Egypt certainly would be a test case.
Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Egypt
by Manoj Dev on Jan 28, 2011 02:35 PM
Fully agree with you. It just so happens that - the people most suppressed are in Muslim countries. And, socio-economic disparity is the root cause behind rise of terrorism; these demonstrations in Tunisia/Egypt have full potential to turn in to terrorist movements which the world already has more than enough.
Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Egypt
by Bored Housewife on Jan 28, 2011 01:54 PM
Long live President Hosni Mubarak ! Without him the Arab world is lost.
Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Egypt
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jan 28, 2011 11:32 PM
If you were well read, this query would have been out of place. Conversely, if you are not well read, then explaining is not going to make an iota of a difference.
Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Eg
by this that on Jan 29, 2011 01:25 PM
EXPLAINING PLURAL SECULAR ARAB STATE IS GOING TO BE MIGHTY TOUGH.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secula
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jan 29, 2011 06:46 PM
Explaining a Republican France before the French Revolution was mightily difficult. This is what revolutions are made of. The revolution discarded the clutches of the church and restored power to the people.
Lebanon for example consists of Sunni Muslims, Shiate Muslims and Christians.
They all agree on the Arab nature of Lebanon. Arabism has nothing to do with religious affiliation, it is an ethnic characteristic - muslims or christians drawn from the same stock have a common ethnicity.
In Lebanon, representation and power sharing is consensually agreed between the major muslim and christian groups. Effectively it is secular.
Pluralism is by definition - 'being accepting of diverse ideas'. Pluralism is always a direct function of the institutional character of the country. Strong and independent institutions. Pluralism brings along with it individual restraint which citizens eventually discover - it is not unbridled chacophony.
Effectively there are existing examples of secular arab states, the idea only needs to be emphasised and realised - for which of course there is need for tall leaders like Kamal Pasha Ataturk of Turkey.
Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Egypt
by Bored Housewife on Jan 28, 2011 01:55 PM
So you want the Muslim Brotherhood, an extremist group to snatch power Mr. Liberal?
Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Egypt
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jan 28, 2011 05:52 PM
No, it should be either the much respected Mohammad El Baradai or any other democratic pluralist.
Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Eg
by sri on Jan 30, 2011 07:22 AM
El Baradai would be perfect. He is a man of the world, a liberal who can bring great change.
Imtiaz, I have a question for you. As you know there are competing interests in the middle east. Religion is a very strong player. Religious identity is very strong and unlikely to give way to western liberalism. Plus poor education and easy oil money are serious issues that dont help the situation. To me it seems that Ataturk achieved secularism in the military and judiciary by some force but now all the repressed religiosity is surfacing in Turkey with the Army slowly getting sidelined. So religion has a way of coming back and taking people backward in some important ways and negating secularism's hard fought gains over the decades. How do you envision the middle east accomodating liberalism, democracy, women rights, religious tolerance and all of that without some fundamental changes in how Islam is practiced and lived? Just curious.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secula
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jan 30, 2011 08:27 PM
Sri - you have asked me a pertinent question, a candid answer for which would require your intellectual restrain.
In every nation in the world, the political spectrum consists of ideologies of the right, left and centre. Democracy, Liberty and Secularism are interlinked and are attributes of the centrist space of the spectrum.
Positioning a society along the centrist space does not happen automatically and is dictated by the thought process of the majority. Human societies have an erroneous but natural inclination to gravitate towards religion as an organising glue. It soon, however, slides into feudalism and repression - denying the very basic rights which it espoused.
It is achieved by dividing the majority along several cleavages other than religion, so that religion fails to consolidate the people. For national security and solidarity, even the minorities must be divided along similar cleavages failing which they go into a ghettoised mentality.
The anarchic role which Islam is playing today has already been played by Christianity before it was hounded out by the American Revolution, British Revolution, French Revolution and the Bolshevik Revolution.
Unfortunately, to off balance the extreme right, the centrists have to traverse first through the deep (but not extreme) leftist space and gradually stabilise in the centrist space.
This is a long discussion, but the above is its crux.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and se
by sri on Jan 30, 2011 11:06 PM
Imtiaz, I understand and agree with your positions. All religions Hinduism and Islam included must change or like Christianity see themselves rejected by the intellectuals among them. Even those religions that have truly high philosophies and are least divisive will have to change to accommodate the evolving human mind. I tend to believe that Religion has served its purpose and its ugly, unrefined, divisive aspects must give way to something that unites, broadens, and harmonizes such as spirituality. But to go back to your points. The West and its religion were overtaken by Science and Philosophy and the Intellect became dominant over Religion while giving it some democratic space. Christianity had tried to suppress other religions and Science and it became necessary for the State to separate itself from Church. Do you see this happening in the Middle East or do you see another route being taken? Will a revolution or a people's movement such as that which is happening in Egypt right now be sufficient to throw off the yoke of the repressive aspects of Islam? The clergy has a very powerful hold in Islam. Reformative movements and the rise of high philosophies were frequent occurrences in Hinduism. Islam too has seen change with the rise of Sufism and movements such as Ahmadiyyas and Ismailis and the Shia have brought new insights. But the Baha’i has been suppressed although it’s a very positive and unifying movement. And new progress seem
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and se
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jan 31, 2011 11:50 AM
Sri : I believe any religious philosophy has two aspects : 1. The spiritual, & 2. As an instrument of mass mobilisation.
Spiritualism of any religion relates a human to god, it is peaceful and compassionate. It deserves respect and does not divide society. However the problem arises when it is used as a mechanism of mass mobilisation.
Unfortunately religion is considered pious and sacrosanct by the masses. Any mobilisation based on this philosophy is acceptable to the masses, but therein lies the contradiction because it eventually leads to repression, loss of freedom, liberty and human rights.
Unfortunately also, small time leaders who lead such movements find it easier to consolidate their own hold on power using religion as a cementing philosophy.
What will happen in the arab countries? : That really depends on who leads the movement. An 85% Hindu India had the brilliance of its independence leadership which steered it towards pluralism and secularism - they stabilised democracy and set up mutually balancing institutions which hold our republic's ideology. Whether such a far sighted leadership would manifest itself in the middle east is a matter of conjecture.
Unfortunately Islam has the chronic problem of defining not only the spiritual aspect of life but also on governance without laying the fundamentals of change. How this plays out is to be seen.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and se
by sri on Jan 30, 2011 11:07 PM
To continue..
Therefore, can the forces that hold the middle east from becoming an active part of the World be overcome easily without the awakening of the Intellectuals and the rise of Science who would constitute the Centrists that you speak of? Do you think that however slowly Science and democracy will have to come and become dominant even in the middle east for religious fervor to abate? 911 was terrible. But it seems to have caused a painful, yet vigorous introspection in the Islamic world. Maybe, we will look back one day and say that it was the beginning of a new World.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and se
by sri on Jan 30, 2011 11:09 PM
The last sentence in the first post was cut off. It should read:
Re: Let there be a fair democratic, plural and secular Egypt
by Balan Iyer on Jan 28, 2011 03:20 PM
Dear Imtiaz,Hosni Mubarak is a Dictator;but not a Theocratic One, as Egypt though a Muslim Country, goes by Secular Credent ials.People are fighting for their genuine freedom but care should be taken that the Radical Extreme shoiuld not hijack the mo vement in their favour.
