Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. Ghori lost sixteen times to Chauhan. and Chauhan forgave each time. Chauhan lost once--and was promptly assassinated.
Our PM seems to be too naive to understand the Pak machinations. Pakistan would never like to accept any Indian proposal on Kashmir or any other issue, as the survival of the Govt. their is based on ultimate anti-India posturing. Secondly, there is no need for our PM to plead and beg for Pak to come to negotiating table when terrorists from Pak soil are encouraged to indulge in heinous crims in India with perhaps local clandestine support. Instead, it will be a better strategy to keep our borders well guarded and crack down on local outfits indulging in anti-national activities. If Pak indulges in any adventurist manouvres across our borders, only our Army should respond with all its might and not the weak political establishment at the Centre.
The only thing Pakistan wants is for India to resume Cricket between the two countries and fill their coffers. Each time Pakistan makes this demand India has relented. No more! Politicians and bureaucrats of both countries should grow up and start behaving like adults. Stop dragging Cricket into the dispute. India should not gift Pakistan for doing nothing on any of the demands that India made on the terrorism front. Why dont we talk about the list of demands that were made following the Mumbai attacks anymore? Let them come good on that first before making any of this farcical diplomacy talks.
Re: Enough already!
by Ramanath Babu on Apr 20, 2011 12:22 PM
It is for tmhe crickets to boycott the proposed tour to Pak, if they are really patriots. Just say NO to Pak tour
In case of Pakistan, our sikh and hindu brothers always forgive and forget and try to bring in peace between India and Pakistan. On the other hand, Modi is still treated as a criminal by the muslim majority. So who has a bigger heart? I still believe we Hindus are cowards who have forgotten our history and have failed our nation. If not for the British, we would be still paying Jizya.
Re: who has a bigger heart Mr Afridi?
by dev singh on Apr 17, 2011 11:04 PM
Rightly said. Hindus are coward and need to be slaughtered like chicken everywhere in the world. You won't see any so called secular intellectual shedding tears for hindus.
In Name of Minority appeasement.. India inspite of no action taken against perpetrators of 26/11 and Kargill episode earlier has gone ahead and engaged with Pakistan..
what message does it give to pakistan ! .. India is a soft state and They can get away with murder however henious it may be.. and Congress govt just for sake of Minority vote again come on table with them
History is created, it does not exist. All we get is a version truth. In the relationship between legal states on matters of such import, what directs policy action is the legal version of truth. While the concerned accused may or may not have spoken the truth, but what he says is not Indian concern.
Indian concern is only what the Honorable Judge accepts as admissible as valid by Court. And only on the basis of this judgment Indian policy makers can formulate their action.
Policy action takes history into account but is directed towards future needs. Between nations there is not necessarily only one legal track, which the train must traverse to move ahead. The situation obtained is quite different from legal process on a civil or criminal investigation within a state.
In policy making, history can guide us but not dictate. The primacy in Indian policy making would be not be to hold the order complying personnel responsible, but ensure that those polices are forsaken. Any Nuremberg mindset is avoidable and Versailles approach is avoidable. There is no victory available anyway to effect such diktats. All we can expect is soul searching on both sides of Radcliffe line and sensible policies to avoid further losses and co-share future prosperity.
This done, conducive conditions may get created to admit bit more reality and compose more authentic history for ourselves.
If any cricket metaphor is valid, Indian PM and Pakistani PM both are batting together on the crease.
Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 16, 2011 08:42 PM
If wise policies are followed on both sides, the legal imperative for the Courts of Pakistan would be to punish all those who took law in their own hands, and all those who ventured into realms of state policy in a self styled manner.
It is only by punishing those guilty can Pakistani law redeem itself and ensure that their civil state is perceived credibly by other nations. Such views have already been expressed by reasonable and responsible sections of their society. In facilitating for effecting those views our diplomatic effort is likely to be directed. This would be the least costly and most effective way of dealing with the matter is evident to all who apply their minds to it.
But whether such course of action really take place or illegal intelli-military structures backed by super powerful forces continue to subvert Pakistani law is not known. If the civil legal structure of Pakistan prevails then subjecting the deviants to law would be an inevitable consequence. It could even be asserted that unless these culprits are brought to book, the civil jurisprudence can not prevail.
Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 16, 2011 10:17 PM
Implementing war needs few strategists working with military command structure. Implementing law requires widespread cooperation of all civilians and a vast, complex political process.
The best bet for India is replacing Sino-Pak-US axis with Indo-Pak bilateral cooperation. If such a plan succeed, secular civil law can be safeguarded for long term peace and growth. Such cooperation is possible only in Pakistan is able to implement civil law.
Indian side of the wicket is undoubtedly sticky and the Pakistani side is also no less wet.
With this sticky note, end this extended conversation.
Re: good running between the wickets
by BeforeIts TooLate on Apr 17, 2011 08:05 AM
Mr Ramesh I hope some near and dear ones of u die in terrorist attack supported by ISI.
In Name of Minority appeasement.. India inspite of no action taken against perpetrators of 26/11 and Kargill episode earlier has gone ahead and engaged with Pakistan..
what message does it give to pakistan ! .. India is a soft state and They can get away with murder however henious it may be.. and Congress govt just for sake of Minority vote again come on table with them
Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 18, 2011 04:36 AM
BeforeIts TooLate,
You do not wish me well, but I take this is a temporary state induced by ignorance led anger.
You frame the issue in terms of internal politics of minority appeasement, which is totally misguided. To fight our enemies we need to be totally united from within, irrespective of religion, caste, or region. If we thoughtlessly divide ourselves, we lose the war. This thought of unity led Dr Ambedkar and other intellectual to devise the Constitutional ideal of secular principle and equality of all citizens in eyes of law.
To fight the enemies we need to know who the enemy is. Here the matter can be quite deceptive. Sun Tzu in treatise on Art of War writes -- never let the enemy know who their enemy is --. He also writes --supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting--.
The way I look at it is, Pakistan is deployed as proxy by China. US also was earlier part of this complex game but now their position is not clear.
If we fight against Pakistan and win the war, it will not be real victory, both would have lost. The only victory for us is a policy on Pakistan such that it chooses not to be a proxy player.
I had written a Hindi poem on 26/11, which Rediff graciously permitted to post it once, but not next time.
Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by BeforeIts TooLate on Apr 18, 2011 08:09 AM
Funny Man.. if u look china is using pakis.. make peace with china.. use the same logic with them ! Just by pass pakistan.. as u dont have to pass through a religion full of hate
Re: Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 19, 2011 02:54 AM
Nehru had tried that with Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai after they annexed Tibet in late 1950s. They saw it as sign of weakness and we had 1962 fiasco. CHina has already gobbled up Sinkiang and Tibet, have about a third of Jammu and Kashmir already, want to grab whole of Arunachal Pradesh, have made deep inroads in Burma and Nepal, made Pakistan nuclear and you talk of peace. This is a prescription for Indians to live under Chinese shadow for generations ahead. Muslims got assimilated into India, Britishers, being a hopeless minority left, but Chinese have no such limitations and expansionist designs. The way Maoists are ripping Indian hinterland is not a lesson for you it seems.
We need to deter China, safeguard our democracy and make policies which shall safeguard our smaller neighbors.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 19, 2011 03:20 AM
The genesis of partition of Pakistan lies in British designs. Indian Muslim officers association was formed in British Indian Army well before 1945. This influential and determined grouping, after 1948 war on Kashmir decided to align with Anglo-US and hence became member of SEATO and CENTO, also referred as Asian NATO. US promised Kashmir to Pakistanis and an allied arc from Istanbul to Rawalpindi was formed.
In response to this, India turned towards China, despite Tibet annexation. Realising India stood isolated, while Soviet Russia and China were aligned, during Cuban crisis time attacked India. We have not fully recovered from the trauma yet. It secured alliance with Pakistan and later when Soviets forged a friendship treaty with India, deployed Pakistan to form an axis with Nixonian US. This lead to their spectacular expansion of their economy and momentum continues.
We should look at the strategic issues only via prism of development. Pakistan and India both have lost out to China. India has bounced back a bit after 1991, and more so after 1998 N-tests. Pakistan still remains unviable and dependent on foreign aid. If India and Pakistan come together it would make Pakistan and the whole subcontinent prosperous, more than matching China.
It is this logic of development which ought to drive our policy priorities. A friendly Pakistan was the vision of Mahatma, and Maulana Azad, we must realise to prosper and safeguard our democracy with help of developed democracies.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 19, 2011 03:36 AM
Before Its Too Late,
Finally, you must realise that the Pakistanis who allied with US and Brits were most westernized Muslims , of Ataturk mould. While Mahatma and Maulana Azad had supported Khilafat movement.
Indian Muslims, the conservative well meaning ones are a majority in Pakistan as well, but they are silent majority. The westernized Muslims and the terror elements are both fringes in Pakistan, while majority there trust India and so do intellectuals amongst Pakistan. The constant propaganda and doctoring the school books have caused severe damage but this is correctable. The age-old ties of the subcontinent can not be whittled away by any zealot or any propaganda. Truth shall spring back specially when it makes common cause with good sense, prosperity, family well being and far greater security.
We need to back the turn towards healthy psychology and healthy sociology in Indo-Pak relationship, do it with determination to decimate all forces of terror and those backing terror. We must remember that pious ones as well as the genuinely educated ones amongst Pakistanis are for restoring kinship with India. The terror operatives and section of military which backs terrorists, may have super powerful support but not that of the conservative majority.
Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 18, 2011 04:54 AM
RSS has the idea of Akhand Bharat. Their ideal was to re-unite the whole subcontinent politically. But after BJP was formed, the political division as accepted as absolute and ABV made his famous Lahore yatra, which only led to suspension of Sharif govt which had won absolute majority and Kargil war. The political foundation for lasting peace was actually laid in the Lahore Yatra. In Kargil India stuck to principled stand of respective Shimla agreement and not crossing LOC.
There is a clear and a firm rationale in Indian policy framework. We should not let the social-cultural issues which partitioned our subcontinent to divide us further. Instead we need to find ways to overcome such internal weaknesses to create Adhunik Bharat. Our industrial base in 1949 was bigger than China, now they are much bigger. Bringing the guilty to book is absolutely necessary. But this needs to be done by law, not war.
Re: Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 18, 2011 05:02 AM
BeforeIts Too Late, request you to read the poem and delve deeper in the realm of thought. The ideal put forth by Mahatma was to wipe the tears in each and every eye. He was a scholar of Gita, knew the difference between violence and war. Be confident, we might have lost many battles, but eventually since truth is on our side, shall win this war.
Reason for Healing ---------------------------- Words expressed with vitriolic energy Force their way thorough strife. Something must be said and others heard.
Emotions reach everywhere, Unbridled urges born in confusion Descend blind on all pathways.
The raw expressions of insignificance, And frustrated desires dissipate, Make room for silence to hear the wails.
You cannot just be feeling in still air. There is got to be some healing. Make reason work for life.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by Ramesh on Apr 18, 2011 02:58 PM
Before Its Too Late,
May be what you say about people distributing sweets in Karachi is true. But if you disagree with me show some courage to fight me directly, why via this very same terrorists? This is a very cowardly stance of yours. The soldier in me does not like this silly stand from a fellow countryman.
If you feel so concerned, volunteer to fight. It will take years of training and severe discipline before you become worthy to fight. And those in position of responsibility shall never commit the soldiers to fight for silly attitudes, only when strategic threats are imminent.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: good running between the wickets
by BeforeIts TooLate on Apr 18, 2011 08:06 AM
Mr Ramesh ! Theoratically all Men should live in peace ! But when you see a kargil happening side by side a peace talk ? or goverment sponsoring terrorism you need to wake up and fight.. Even Gandhi wouldnt have adviced to talk to enemy whose only weapon is treachery. If u must know i can send you clips of how people in Karachi rejoiced and distrubuted sweets at time of mumbai terrorist attack.. I know of couple of people who perished and it easily could have been me.. But with ideas like yours i prefer it should be people like you.. Because when writing is on the wall.. that these people dont understand reason you still are trying to put in thier tiny head the same and getting slaughtered over and over again.
MMS govt is coming up with Amnesty for the militants who fled to pak, calling upon to throw stones on Indian Army. Is it on suggestion of Ahmed patel to Sonia and that is why MMS invited Gilani to carry further talks. On Abdullah confession of how in one night cleaned all kashmiri pandits out of Kashmir, to govt did not utter any apology to Kashmiri pandit for being ill treated in their own land neither came up with any packages with getting back their grabbed land to them and is silent on this issue. MMS sound to be more lean towards pak.
