Either Snecma has paid hefty bribe to DRDO or MoD people or these departments have been intruded elements from Pakistan/China or USA to take everything possible steps to stop India from developing this fighter jet. This is the one more nail on the LCA’s coffin.
Re: Forget LCA Project.
by Dinesh Solanki on Jul 03, 2010 04:21 AM
those involved in defence projects know that DRDO while good at many thinks definiotely lacks capabilities in high tech area where India has not made investments.Also DRDO takes long time. When Pakistan gets latest F-16/F-18 etc, Indain Air Force can not be left at the pace at which DRDO prgresses. India's efforts at the development of arjun Tanks is long story and so are many others. Army, Navy and air force can not go obn waiting when China & pakistan keep adding to their capAbilities.By the time DRDO acquires capability , the techn9ology is already outdated. indian Govt should give deadlines and requisite resources if they want indiginous capability and draw a deadline sop that Army, Navy and Air Force do not keep suffering just because DRDO keeps on experimenting. We are living with dangerous neighbourhood.What adds fuel to fire is one is Islamic and another is Autocartic Communist who when do not respect their own people are unlikely to be nice to india.Also DRDO needs to be opressurised to tell the truth about their real capabilities rather than give false hopes.
because in India we never employ the best people for the job. We will hire somebody because they're friend, because they are relative, because some politician is pulling strings or they paid enough bribery. But we don't look at their merit. People got rejected because of "caste" or because they are female or different race, or perhaps even have some foreign blood. So now after these many discriminations at home, we go licking and begging at white people's feet for "collaboration". This is the formula for failure, not success. Having said that, I will say GE makes great engines (engines that are designed by blacks, women and immigrants in USA). USA is the most promising in this field for tech-transfer in this post cold-war period.
Re: ???
by Argumentative Indian on Jun 28, 2010 10:56 AM
Ofcourse. Firstly, research & development, per se, is a tough & monetarily less rewarding career, than other equally or even less tough career choices, like say a corporate career, law, medicine or busines, whether in the West or India. So it is clear a career in research is only for people who really enjoy research, enjoy creating new things and contributing meaningfully to society as a sort of side effect. Secondly it is important that these people are brilliant, because they are not competing with others in their environment, but they competing in absolute with the whole world or even the Universe to achieve breakthroughs. E.g. you'll drink the coffee at your office vending machine, even if it stinks, because firstly its not life & death and secondly you don't have a realy choice. In a military technology, only the world's best is allowed. How many of our brilliant engineers choose to stay in India? Of the Indian scientists, how many work for the pure love of science, research & development and how many work because there is no alternative? Are our senior research positions occupied by senior scientists well past their scientific prime and now workig as high end administrators.
Re: Re: ???
by Argumentative Indian on Jun 28, 2010 10:58 AM
Secondly, physical infrastructure. High end research requires high quality, well equipped and WELL MAINTAINED laboratories. Firstly we rarely have labs with high end equipment, and when we do, we don't maintain the equipment and it is much tougher to maintain sensitive equipment in India's tropical weather and shoddy electric supply than in say Germany or France, so our scientists are working with a handicap there too.
Re: Re: Re: ???
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jun 28, 2010 11:12 AM
Argumentative Indian : What you say is eminently correct. But there has always been a problem with the functioning of the DRDO. We must also bear in mind the achievements of ISRO and AEC of India.
The lab competence and monetary frugality would be effecting these organisations too, but they have delivered.
It is important DRDO also delivers. It is a matter of grave concern why they have not been able to deliver on the Kaveri engine with so many years of work.
Re: Re: Re: Re: ???
by Jaganath Bharat on Jun 28, 2010 02:09 PM
Defence organisations tend to be selective in choosing their employees, so they'll prefer certain candidates over others, based on background/connections, rather than merit or competency. This also leads to the different internal functioning as compared to civilian research organisations like ISRO where due to good variety of people, broad-minded thinking is possible. I think DRDO should open their doors to better talent across entire India, and offer them better employee package. It is the only way to move forward.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ???
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jun 28, 2010 03:50 PM
Jagannath : howsoever the knitty gritty is explained, the fundamental point remains there is something terribly wrong with the working of the DRDO. In India there are examples of excellently run public institutions/psu's as also the horribly run.
Re: ???
by Krishna on Jun 28, 2010 02:21 PM
Vey simple, their knowledge is appreciated in the west, they are encouraged to find solutions, their contributions are duly recognized, and finally their solutions are implemented by the industry, which give them a sense of accomplishment. In India they are treated as piece of sh..t.
Re: Re: Re: ???
by Jaganath Bharat on Jun 29, 2010 12:27 AM
it's beyond imagination, that in giant India only one organisation/company is busy making a jet engine. There should be more, so that competition occurs, the good get awarded, and the bad pay the price of failure.
Re: Re: Re: Re: ???
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jun 29, 2010 10:58 AM
Perfectly correct.
In the recent Defence policy, I think they are coming with a proposal that two private companies would be asked to develop a futuristic system with predefined parameters. The product which proves its competence, that company would bag the order. The other would, as you say, bear the brunt of its incompetence.
This the policy it says, is the model followed in the US which is to be replicated in our country.
That is still a document and one does not know when it will be implemented.
While the model would be successful but brings along with it huge competition between corporates in bagging orders and all the other concommittant good and bad aspects.
At this stage we must also understand, the model followed by the US is also responsible for the creation of the military-industrial complex in the US with its various ramifications. I trust and hope we would try to exploit the model for its benefits and eschew its negatives. But that thought is in the realms of idealism. Lets hope for the best.
Re: Re: Re: ???
by Mahendra Patel on Jun 29, 2010 12:25 AM
Imtiaz, this is similar to "not being Good Diamond Appaiser, how can he differentiate between a Glass and Diamond" if that is a case than How can you Differentiate between High Quality High worth Diamond and Low ost average Diamond?
Re: Re: Re: Re: ???
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jun 29, 2010 10:59 AM
Yes but that is the competence of a system. If we could prove it in ISRO AND AEC, then why not in the DRDO. If one is unable to comprehend between, as you say, between a good and bad diamond then one is not worth heading an organisation.
The kickback mafia wants to stall for their own kickback plans. The R & D mafia does not diversity research to new places/people to integrate/coordinate in Bangalore/Mumbai/Delhi.
WE DON'T NEED NEW ENGINES FROM DRDO AND TEJAS PROGRAM? SONIAJI WILL ARRANGE EVERY THING TO BUY FROM OVERSEAS AS THE HONEST DEFENCE MINISTER A.K. ANTHONY WILL BOW HIS HEAD TO MADAM? AND SAY! YES QUEEN, YES QUEEN? WHAT EVER U SAY IS THE RULE? WE SLIVES WILL LISTEN? U ARE OUR QUEEN? WHAT A PITY?
Re: kaveri?
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jun 28, 2010 11:17 AM
The need of the hour is quick induction of the Tejas as a replacement for the retiring MiG 21's. We are working at only 29 squadrons which is dismally inadequate.
The cold start doctrine stipulates the IAF to have approx 90 squadrons against its present approved strength of 42 squadrons. At 29, one can imagine what will be the competence of the IAF in the event of a conflict.
The earlier chief of the IAF Air Chief Marshal S.P.Tyagi had warned the government, first time in history the IAF will be inferior in conventional arms superiority vis-a-vis Pakistan if this work is not expedited post haste. The threat from China is an altogether different ball game.
It is important we stop being cantankerous and do what is eminently needed.
Re: Re: kaveri?
by Mahendra Patel on Jun 29, 2010 12:38 AM
Imtiaz well said,very timely respose,reading through all other comments, I would say we lack seriousness and sense of Importance and priorities in our everyday thinking- I was wondering what makes small countries Like, Japan, Germany, France, Israel all smaller than any of our one STATE can out bit Whole of India's Tellent???
First thing First, I am impressed with Level of Seriousness, Urgency and with real understanding of need of Indian forces' preparedness and came up with right solution in Priotity.
Now Comming to point I want to make, We as Citizen's are responsible for sate of our nation, In Political, Cultural and Economical term there is no "OTHER" there to be blamed.
If we as a citizens are serious than we would not have elected "MORON" to Govern us. So I would say we as CITIZENS need to Change first and for that I would say Let them travel Overseas and see first hand what a responsible CITIZEN MEANS.
Re: Re: Re: kaveri?
by IMTIAZ KHAN on Jun 29, 2010 05:29 PM
Mahendrabhai : see comments on the discussion board. You will realise the seriousness of our citizens :-)
Re: Re: kaveri?
by ravi khot on Jun 28, 2010 10:45 AM
100% agree to ur point,all has gone to vatican church and is used in converting people in rural india, that is the reason she is been kept for by western allies, when indian will know these god only knows.
Re: Highly contradictory
by SUDHIR RAO M on Jun 29, 2010 07:22 AM
Jai Ho Krishnaji. People like you are one of the reason why we have fallen behind in progress. Lets put TATA NANO engines into MIG 21's. Because Nano has better engine.
The kickback mafia wants to stall for their own kickback plans. The R & D mafia does not diversity research to new places/people to integrate/coordinate in Bangalore/Mumbai.
