What I think is clear that Russia us taking India for a ride. See their actions for the last 5 years or so. They have gone back on their word on the carrier deal now the delay in the delivery deals. These action openly threaten the security of our nation and should be taken lightly. We have a long coast line which needs to be guarded, and we can use every sub / frigate and other war ships to do just that to avoid any more attacks both conventional or unconventional like Mumbai or by Pak navy. But opting for French subs puts us in a quandry with regard to supplies and spares in the event of a nuclear test. This logic of not having man power or money to train seems like bull shit as they are sitting one one of the largest oil / gas reserves in the worls and had a fiels day during the sky rocketing prices last year.
Thats the safe way to ensure that while we pay the bills anyway BUT at the same time we can supervise the development and take part in developing technology. That helps both India and Russia. It helps in exchanging knowledge between engineers of both countries. When we are a part of the project we can monitor it and influence it, know the reasons and suggest remedies to correct the course of delivery within our timeframe and budget. If we are merely at the buying end, we have no options but to do what manufacturer is saying or abandon it. Why did the corrupt congress-upa govt not go for joint venture? busy getting bribes? CHOR CONGRESS!
Why is India going on this arms buying binge? It will not use it against Pakistan for fear of being nuked. All these projects merely lead to greasing of palms. Spend the money on improving infrastructure, building latrines, providing running water etc
It was very much expected, the way India has been ruining is foreign policy and shifting from time tested friends to enemy apeasement, it was just a matter of time. You will soon see Russia will be no more in our favor and why should it be, when time came India started looking at US to solve its issues and started buying US weapos to woe them. India is such a fool, Russia is still major supplier of arms about 60% arms trade in world is by Russia, but India thought Russia is done, and instead of being with them Indi started alliging with US, which has always been anti India. This was expected only thing was when?
Re: It Was Expected
by Mojo Jojo on Jan 22, 2009 06:06 AM
Sam, yes the Russians helped us in testing times. But life has to move on. The russian arms community is becoming fast obselete. We will have to turn to new vendors such as France and U.S. to fulfill our defence needs. Russian equipments are becoming absolute crap and it is not at all worth paying them so much for those crap. France can provide much better nuke subs and as far as aircraft carrier goes, US is the best in that department with thier enviable fleet. We should acquire one of thier leading classes of ships like Nimitz, instead of this 1980 Gorshkov.Aircraft wise too the MIGs have to replaced soon with some other modern European birds.
Re: look for some other country
by RR on Jan 22, 2009 02:53 AM
Some items, like the nuke sub, are offensive weapons that have no vendors (nations) that are ready to part with it, especially due to the nature of the technology. This is a big set back given that we are in the midst of being in to production our own atv. The russian subs were suppose to be test beds for our submariners to learn the protocols that go in working with a nuke sub. Besides, this, I believe we have to sincerely start looking for more better vendors than Russia, also, we have to improve our own research and product methods, so as not to be extremely dependent on any other country. Remember, when time comes, there are only very few countries that will help...given Russia and its growing unreliable nature, it is high time we start doing joing production and research with counrties like Israel and France.
India will not have to deal with Russian junk and have a chance to buy a real modern sub.
Low oil prices and canceled defense contracts are the perfect mixture to put the Putin Mafia in place in Russia. I hope someone takes advantage of this situation and gets rid of them for good.
Re: Might is right
by S K on Jan 21, 2009 11:12 PM
Amit, Your family name is Gupta meaning someone having a family background in business but your ideas are not sound to befit your background. During the last 4 years cost of everything has escalated beyond recognition and even if Russia is asking for double of the agreed price, it is still lower than the market price for the same equipment in it's class. Do you have any other supplier in mind with the reliability of Russians? Where would our country be if Russians din't support us when no one dared support? We shouldnegotiate the price with them and make sure that we pay for what we get but at the same time we have to make sure that they do not loose because they committed something in good faith.
Re: Re: Might is right
by buddypaldude on Jan 21, 2009 11:26 PM
if i am not wrong mig 21 and mig 29 fighter planes are supplied by russia, it cannot be denied that these planes are called "flying coffins" because of the no. of crashes. the plane is a junk and has resulted in invaluable loss of pilots (human resource) of the indian air force. the fact remains that russia supplies second hand parts, arms and equipments to India.
clearly you can read in the article above that one of the nuclear submarines to be given to india was involved in an accident resulting in deaths of some russian army personnels.
we need to maintain cordial relations with russia 100% , but not by screwing our own people, country and taxpayers money
since arms deals are of high value and importance, no compromises should be made with quality.
Re: Re: Re: Might is right
by S K on Jan 21, 2009 11:31 PM
Kindly try to find out the date of supply of Mig-21s and their expected duration in service. This will automatically give answer to your question.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Might is right
by buddypaldude on Jan 21, 2009 11:49 PM
I have not posed questions, I have expressed my opinion and stand by it.
If you want to state any point, your most welcome, but i wont go searching for your answers or your justifications, this is not what a discussion should be.
Make your point, by stating the facts, DONT ASK ME TO GO FIGURE THE FACTS.
example : i have given reference of the article above when speaking abt the nuclear submarines accident,and provided the logic that it was a defected submarine, so we should not buy it
I DIDNT ASK YOU TO GO LOOK FOR ANYTHING .
and in my opinion, after the accident Indian govt mustve recognised this fact.
the russians MAYBE wanted india to bear the expenses of the destroyed submarine and therefore the double price.
the incident would have left a bitter taste in the mouth of the russians, but we wont lick their a**
having said that i truly believe russia is an important ally of india, and hope that this does not affect relations with the country as we have had many economic and military deals with them in the past, (so much that we even bought their second hand planes, or else they would probably depreciat and make losses for russia)
russia has for long been a trusted ally. and when the chips are down with pakistan, russia is the only reason that china will not interfere - this has been proved in the past. and russia has a good scientific pool to develop advanced weaponary - if not anything else. so whatever breakthrough we have made with the west we should be careful to balance our procurements from the west with russia. russia's support to us in times of crisis is worth many times more than any weaponary we can purchase from anywhere. let us not forget our time tested ally.
Re: the importance of russia cannot be underestimated
by Prakash Chandra on Jan 21, 2009 09:12 PM
I wish to take my next birth in Russia to pay back what it did to India. Government of India may be selfish but people are not.
Re: Re: the importance of russia cannot be underestimated
by Arvind Singh on Jan 22, 2009 07:51 AM
Hear felt & true, in these testing times we shd have developed more closer ties (might be there is some secret mechanism), however in 1991 even India was cash strapped and needed to apparently show some closeness with US to tap its business. China despite not being an ally has done good in all sectors including the economy due to the hardwork and committment (may be forcible) of its people. In India thats lacking and there is a mechanism to siphon off at highest level at the cost of India's rise.
Russia has got all old obsolete technology.More over it is dangerous to buy a nuclea submarine from a beggar country which has no money to do pre delivery trials.
Re: Stop buying from beggar country
by S K on Jan 21, 2009 11:21 PM
What do you mean by a begger country? Your use of such language to discuss the sensitive issues makes you unfit for discussion. This is in the news that their electricity got disconnected because of non payment of dues . This is reason enough for us to renegotiate with them to give them a fair price which helps them survive and in turn provides us with a critical technology and equipment.
Re: Stop buying from beggar country
by Prakash Chandra on Jan 21, 2009 09:15 PM
Mr. Nyay Wadi always talk about desert where cultivation is impossible. Man, we need greenery ! Not dry land. Better you leave your job in Gulf and return to India.
