I have to agree with u. All points are 100% valid. IITs are Technology insitutes and should produce reserachers and Technologists and not management graduates. That is the responsibility and duty of IITs.
In my understanding , IITs and IIMs are just status symbols which boosts one's egos and a ticket to fat pay checque and nothing more. People graduating from IITs and IIMs become musicians , farmers and god knows what not!!! What a waste man.. That is the reason y India's manufacturing sector is so weak and will remain so.
Re: @Vivek Dev
by rakesh singh on Mar 29, 2010 09:04 PM
China has a strong manufacturing base not because of its engineers but because of the freedom enjoyed by its manufacturers.No license raj,no inspector raj, no union raj and no suffocating tax raj.
Re: @Vivek Dev
by Vivek Dev on Mar 29, 2010 09:26 PM
Thanks AP. These elitist institutes are only boarding stops for the corporate gravy train. They are quite useless and a great drain on valuable, time, money and resources.
Re: Re: @Vivek Dev
by B Raman on Mar 29, 2010 10:22 PM
Mr.avivek, you are a cynical moron who cannot see beyond your own penny. You don't worry about science and technology.
The point is that they don;t get paid for being geniuses. and you are talking about draining all that!
Look around. If at all these geniuses want to pursue their interests, they have to go to US. There are many indian professors in US doing fabulous research work. If the same guys were in India, they would not be the same because they need to earn their meal and BMWs too.
The solution is very simple. I appreciate your concern even though you are blinded by passion. You get a 100 crore and employ 200 300 scientists.. they will be more than happy to pursue their dreams.
enough said man.. just don;t worry it is not your problem and there are a lot of people who are doing amazing work..
Re: Re: Re: @Vivek Dev
by Vivek Dev on Mar 30, 2010 11:17 AM
@BR- IITs were NOT set up to facilitate Indians to pursue their dreams of becoming high net worth individuals. They were set up to produce professionals who will for a decent salary provide technical and engineering inputs for the economy of an emerging nation. That should be elementary. Perhaps the visionaries who set up these institutes would have nursed dreams of Indian professionals from these institutes working in Indian companies and turning them into multinationals. Surely these institutes churning out graduates for MNCs selling potato chips, liquor, insurance, credit cards etc would have been the last thing on their minds. If you have done any research into the subject please let us know how many IITians work in science & tech areas in US companies. I know many such IIT graduates who have left their S&T behind and work in all kinds of non-tech fields. In fact in most of the cases I have come across of professors etc who work in S&T in US universities an overwhelming majority are from non-IIT background.
If you have not got round to figuring out where I am coming from let me spell it out for you
It is vital for a nation to ensure that a large part of its brightest and the best work in science and tech areas. The IITs were set up to do just that, and they have failed for whatever reasons.
Rediff is publishing this story for the last two years the same story..I am a MD of a leading company and i have been told by my Board ..do not unfreeze the recruitment..retrench..every meeting they ask me how many you reduced..not much profit we made per employee..I have not taken a interview for last 7 months for Sr.position..Pity boss why rediff is doing this..who are the owners of rediff..
Re: All Bullshit
by raj on Mar 29, 2010 05:36 PM
Who can believe MD of a leading company doing blogging on Cheap rediff Blog site. What is the name of your company.
Re: Re: All Bullshit
by B Raman on Mar 29, 2010 10:11 PM
That explains why Mr.Raji's company is terminally under recession. and that also gives one more reason why we need better managers too.
What is management? The control over others by management grads young uns) who think they are very smart and have learned all the techniques of people management. These management 'gurus' prefer freshers, who after recruitment can be manipulated and moved around for very low pay packets. These managers think nobody knows about fair labor practices, they fire guys without even the mandatory notice pay 2 months' pay, these IIM management 'gurus' get away with these unfair ways!
One particular COO has been seen as firing a very experienced hand without even paying the statutory pay of 3 months'. This particular COO was a very senior hand working in one of our prestigious defense research establishments, blissfully enjoying all these benefits while a Central Govt. employee himself. The Centre and Stae Govts. are also seen as encouraging such activities of abrupt termination, without following statutory guidelines for firing.
Now the younger HR executives are blissfully following the examples set by their COOs and VPs. This is soon going to be followed by very bad incidents, even lawyers are abetting this and advising to the contrary.
Re: management gurus all
by sameer on Mar 29, 2010 12:52 PM
Thats why such incidences are arising where the fired executive wants to get back at the company. A recent case happened in an automobile component mnf. company PRICOL LTD in which HR-Head was beaten to death in sep'09 last by some employess who were fired from job.
India is full of technoa. lots of engineer and doctors who have created great work world wide. Made india proud. But managment experts are lacking. Entreprneur who can start and run business venture profitably. thats more important since we need to create tons of job for indian. Make life simpler, by providing indian world class tehcnology to live daily life better. Just Nano car is not enough. We need efficient traffic system, great maintainance of road, foot path, high tech library with audio-video learning facility. the list is endless. thats where new managment expert will be needed.
Management schools or b-schools are a disgrace and should be razed to the ground. These schools turn would be good engineers into investment bankers and stock brokers. IITs were set up to produce engineers not marketing, finance and hr gurus. IITs have failed their mandate of producing engineers. Pathetic. The desirability of these institutes should be questioned.
Re: Management schools
by akash rathi on Mar 29, 2010 12:15 PM
i agree with vivek, iit institute should look in to matter seriously to overcome iits problems to have great engineers to bring the nation name to the peak in world.
Re: Re: Management schools
by gautam ATHAVALE on Mar 29, 2010 12:40 PM
I do agree , these premier institutions should encourage and promote research and inventions in science and technology. There are other MBA's , CFA , an actuary who can be investment advisors , successfull bankers.
Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by B Raman on Mar 29, 2010 12:50 PM
majority of these guys are from middle class indian families who can barely afford even pocket money during their education. you cannot expect them to shove them into isro/drdo and such other rotten gutters.
most of them actually are passionate about their interests in the field of science and maths but end up postponing their dreams until they settledown...
the only way is to value their skills and not exploit it. pay them well. as simple as that.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by Vivek Dev on Mar 29, 2010 12:55 PM
@BR- Do u mean to say these guys who chuck their fields of interest the first thing they do after they graduate are interested in pursuing careers in science and technology? Give me a break.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by Vivek Dev on Mar 29, 2010 01:54 PM
@BR- The issue i have raised is that IITs were set up to produced engineers, not management gurus. How is that invalid. What makes it invalid. IITs have no business producing management grads. They should be producing engineers and technologists interested in pursuing careers in these fields. If they fail then IITs should not be called premier institutes of technology as they have nothing to do with technology.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by B Raman on Mar 29, 2010 01:02 PM
yes, I meant what you understood.
and if you think otherwise, then the issues you raised in the first place are invalid. i.e., if u think they are good at only non-technical fields, then why would anyone complain about them going into the non-technical fields?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by B Raman on Mar 29, 2010 02:47 PM
Mr.Dev, IITs were indeed setup to produce Engineers and scientists. Correct. And, that is what it has been doing so far and continues to be on the same track.
The management institutes of IITs are a very recent adoption(abt 10-15yrs old) and form a very tiny part of these institutes. They have about 4000 to 5000 undergraduate Engineering and Technology students through JEE which forms the core of what these institutes represent. There has been no deviation from this.
In addition to that, they have about 1000 Post graduate Engineering and Technology students through GATE.
Management students are about 100 to 200.
IITs will remain the premier institutes for technology recognised all over the world.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by Vivek Dev on Mar 30, 2010 11:29 AM
@BR-As far as insitutes are concerned they have to create an interest in the students to pursue their chosen fields. That shackling has to come from creating passion for their particular calling. This is obviously not happening, as these grads would rather work in any field other than technology for the money.
As far as exceptions are concerned well there are examples like that of Dr Sreedharan of DMRC fame. But if exceptions prove anything they prove the norm. And in a way you have proved what I have been driving at. So should IITs produce the likes of Dr Sreedharans or Indira Nooyis?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by B Raman on Mar 29, 2010 10:03 PM
and like I have already said, if YOU want or others like you want these geniuses to put their efforts in science, YOU and your fellows need to support them with fat paychecks.
Look at NASA. do you think they would survive in a free market?
The issue is very simple and solution is even simpler.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by Vivek Dev on Mar 29, 2010 03:42 PM
@BR- How many of those tech grads work in science and technology disciplines? IIT grads dont want to work as engineers and technologists. They want to work in soft management areas in banks, management consultancy etc because of the obscene salaries on offer. I dont have any problem with that but then let IITs not crow about being cetres of excellence in science and technology. Institutes that dont instill any love for S&T and worse encourage grads to switch to management through their captive b-schools are not serving science and technology in any way, let us get that straight.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by B Raman on Mar 29, 2010 09:57 PM
Mr.Dev, 1. As far as the Institutes are concerned, their job is to educate the students. They cannot shackle the students with any kind of obligation. It is entirely upto the student to choose his career path. Hence, IITs are very much in their rights to claim to be centers of excellence in science and technology.
2. There are inspiring exceptions where IITians left fat paychecks to pursue their interests. At the same time, there are many of them who sacrificed their interests for lucrative offers. And there is yet another bunch who realise that engineering and technology may not be their cup of tea and switched.
I don;t understand your problem. I hope you do atleast.
Re: Management schools
by Roy on Mar 29, 2010 12:15 PM
It is the perosnnel choice.Sashi Tarur got admission in IIM and he qulified for IAS also,but what he choose.Diplomatic field.
Re: Re: Management schools
by Vivek Dev on Mar 29, 2010 12:36 PM
@Roy- When IITs dont produce engineers and technocrats there is something wrong with the culture at these institutes. Country spends huge amounts on education of engineers who are specialists and these management institutes turn them into generalists. This is wrong.
Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by Vivek Dev on Mar 29, 2010 12:39 PM
@salil - they take up management only because of the prospects it offers. If they want to become managers they should not take up engineering seats. It is national loss when such people become managers just because they get more money.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by Pankaj Solanki on Mar 29, 2010 03:08 PM
@Vivek: I beg to take exception from your funnel vision. I hope we all will agree that this is an era of technocrats. Technology alone without its feasibility in the social, economic and political context will be delaying rather derailing our long cherished inclusive growth.Society needs holistic solutions to the problem, wouldn`t they be better provided by people who know the technical inside out of the issues as well are good managers. There are loads of example where technologist could not foresee the aftermaths of their course of actions and the society as a whole had to bear the brunt. There is nothing pathetic in producing technocrats, in fact it ensures that materialization of the technological solution available to alleviate major problems today. Secondly how can you question the liberty of a person to enhance her productivity and prospects. We are talking inclusive growth rite ?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Management schools
by Vivek Dev on Mar 29, 2010 03:51 PM
@PS- Engineers and technologists are by definition "nuts & bolts" professionals. We need good nuts and bolts professionals who will work in specific areas in which they have knowledge and skills and offer 'nuts and bolts" solutions. IITs mandate was to produce such people. You need to understand that engineers are specialists not generalists and their services as specialists are far more valuable to society that those of generalists.
