RE:BCCI backs PCB
by The Legionnaire on Aug 23, 2008 11:43 AM
Pakistan is today crying foul for South African team to opt out of Champions Trophy. Pakistan conveniently forgot that in late eighties and early nineties they did the same with India. They were cancelling series repeatedly against India. Getting the taste of their own medicine!!
The only match India won was by the efforts of all the players except the fab - 4. This clearly shows India can win matches without them.
This series could prove to be a turning point in Indian cricket. As this is the first time that all four have failed collectively. Earlier one or two would fire and would carry the failures of the other member of the quartet. Now, they are fully exposed with no one to cover their failures!
RE:Good news - all four have failed
by anaida raza on Aug 23, 2008 10:31 AM
Kumble is already counting himself which one fifth... must be half one lol...
One can't expect Kumble to criticise these players publicly, as they are his colleagues and moreover he is too gentle to criticise anyone anyway.
As a matter of fact any person holding a public profile in Indian cricket would not dare to criticise these players.
Its interesting that in defence of these players all arguements are based on what they have done in the last 15 years.
Quite honestly, India - Sri Lanka series has been a watershed for Indian batsmen. In recent years they have been playing on feather beds where bowlers are attacked mercilessly. It has led them into a false impression that they are the greatest batsmen of all time. After many years they have encountered two world class bowlers on pitches with assistance to bowlers. The result has been a shocker to them. I suppose they have understood reality of their position in world cricket.
We need more bowlers and pitches like these in the future
RE:Reality Check
by varun on Aug 23, 2008 12:11 PM
Which game are you watchin sir. Would you call the tracks in aus, sa, eng, as feather beds. Good luck to you. I feel sorry for your intellectual innocence in cricket. Look how many matches india won abroad before this batting order came about. In this period India have played 21 tests against aus and have won 8 and lost 9. This is a creditable record considering the record of other teams against them. And in those matches this middle order avg 68 collectively.
RE:Reality Check
by The Legionnaire on Aug 23, 2008 12:38 PM
With the same middle order India also surrendered its record of 35 years of not loosing to Australia at home. With the same middle order against the same Australia we lost the world cup final.
Against the same middle order who were considered the best batsmen against spin a debutant made them to look like school boys against broke a record of 60 years.
You can go about presenting records and even I can present the same to you. Do you think will it prove anything?
The fact is Sri Lanka was too good for us! As much as you deny ten years down the line when people read stats you putting so profusely, the great success story of Indian middle order they will also read their insistence to continue playing well past their glorious years, which was followed by humiliation by two spinners.
Mind you! the same stats of their collective failure and disaster followed would also be there for all to see.
RE:Reality Check
by anaida raza on Aug 24, 2008 10:08 AM
Australia did not visit India between 1969 to 1979 whopping ten years. Then in 1986 after seven years during Packer period. We won then.Then in 1996 again after 10 years.
Then in 1998 full fledged team first time after Packer experiments. Reason they did not find worth visiting India and even if visited their key players used to opt out.
so record of 35 years of not loosing to Australia at home .....?
RE:Reality Check
by Balaji Krishnamurthy on Aug 23, 2008 09:22 AM
Australia - Featherbed pitches. Agreed maybe it is time for these guys to move on but to trash their contribution is too much. They have performed on difficult wickets against quality bowling. They are getting older but to totally trash them would be to insult India's record. Please check your stats, India has won the most Test matches abroad since 2000 after Australia. And these four have had a major hand in this record. Granted they failed in Galle, but if you look carefully, their contribution has been major. As for Mendis, he has had beginners luck. Let us see how he does in future
RE:Reality Check
by The Legionnaire on Aug 23, 2008 11:56 AM
Your defence of Indian batsmen is understandable but to say that Ajanta Mendis has had only beginner's luck is simply astounding! Have you ever seen Indian batsmen struggled the way they have been against Mendis? Not being able to score run against a bowler is one thing, being completey decimated by a bowler is another! One could see how short of confidence they were facing him. BTW you completly forgot his partner in crime who did a small matter of taking over 21 wickets. What about him? a veteran luck??
We lost in Srilanka becuse these guys are well beyond there best. We won one match not becuse of them, it was becuse some one else performing. Had sehwag & Harbajjn not pulled their socks, we would have lost even that and got washed 3-0. Its time to chopp out three of them, and Kumble should be off first.
These seniors r way too smart than the ones in the 80s who didnt back each other up and had to retire one after another,nowadays all u need to do is support one another and they retain their places..
There is this absurd notion that Sachin doesn’t perform in ODI finals. I think the fact that he didn’t perform in the 2003 WC final has led to this perception. Similarly, Ponting has a pretty good, but not great, record in finals but his 2003 WC final performance has led to the belief that he performs brilliantly in finals. Adam Gilchrist, another player who is believed to play well in finals, also has a similar record. Credit to both of them that they played two brilliant knocks in the WC final but its unfair to draw conclusions based on one or two performances. Lara has a very poor record in finals, which is a surprise.
Adam Gichrist Matches 33 Average 37.51 100s 3 50s 6 Brian Lara Matches 18 Average 28.16 100s 1 50s 2 Ricky Ponting Matches 44 Average 39.52 100s 2 50s 7 J Kallis Matches 17 Average 24.21 100s 0 50s 1 Sachin Tendulkar Matches 38 Average 52.96 100s 5 50s 10
RE:Does Tendulkar perform in ODI Finals?
by The Legionnaire on Aug 23, 2008 06:39 AM
If you have a look at the performances of players in the world cup finals, you would find that all the players who played a key role in winning the final have been great players.
All of these players were/are great players, who played great cricket even outside world cup. None of the world cup finals ever had a player becoming MoM who was an ordinary player.
The fact is it is expected from great players to perform in such situation and those who don't perform, there is always a sense of disappointment attached with their performance.
This is one disappointment which will always blemish Sachin's illustrious career for some cricket fans. No amount of statistics can erase this disappointment.
RE:Does Tendulkar perform in ODI Finals?
by anaida raza on Aug 23, 2008 09:54 AM
1975 C H Lloyd 1979 Richards 1983 Amarnath 1987 D C Boon 1992 - Wasim Akram 1996 - Arvinda De Silva 1999 - Shane Warne 2003 - Ricky Ponting 2007 - Adam Gilchrist
RE:Does Tendulkar perform in ODI Finals?
by Effortless on Aug 23, 2008 02:33 PM
There are some other great players missing from this list - Ian and Greg Chappell, Brian Lara, Ian Botham. If performing in WC final is the only criteria for making a person great then Mohinder Amarnath should rank as the greatest Indian cricketer, not Kapil Dev or anyone else. By the same token Gautam Gambhir should also be the greatest Indian cricketer as he performed well in T20 WC.
RE:Does Tendulkar perform in ODI Finals?
by varun on Aug 23, 2008 12:00 PM
Ok i agree that Sachin did'nt perform up to the expectations in the final of 2003 world cup finals. But do you think india had a realistic chance to win the match after australia got 360 odd? The question is how many of these great players would've won that match in place of sachin. Ricky ponting himself told that even before bowling to sachin they had put india out of the match. So people criticising sachin alone for the defeat is ridiculous. From the above stats it's proved that when he's been provided able support from all quarters he has always delivered for india when it mattered the most. You can't say that sachin has not done his bid to try to win india the world cup because he has scored more runs than any other player in world cup history. People like you won't understand that world cup's are won by team effort not any individuals however brilliant they are. Azhar himself confessed after the 96 world cup that had the team played even 70% of how sachin played they would've won. Blatant criticism without any logic and understanding of the game is all you have to come up against the stats. Some of sachin's fans do blind workship and some of sachin bashers blindly criticise. You and me can argue for donkey's years about sachin's contribution to indian ricket but he'll definately go down as the greatest modern day player.
RE:Does Tendulkar perform in ODI Finals?
by The Legionnaire on Aug 23, 2008 06:29 AM
The record of Sachin is pretty impressive, as everyone knows and also the stats you presented.
The question is inspite of the impressive record why is the disappointment among a lot of Indian criket fans that he lets India in important matches?
As you correctly pointed out Ponting failed in most of the finals and Sachin's record is exceptional in finals.
With all his failures in finals where did Ponting click? - The world cup final!!
Which is more important for a cricket fan? A match winning performance in a world cup final or final of your routine tournaments?
Where do you think is player expected to have the highest pressure? A world cup final or any other final?
India has won numerous tournaments in the past, which one makes you the most proud? I bet 1983 world cup win. Why is that win important? Because India against all odds beat the best team in the world in a world cup final.
This is where a perception has been formed for Sachin Tendulkar which is partly justified because as a great player he is expected to bear all this pressure and help India win the world cup. He did get an opportunity in the 2003 final which he messed up. His pile of records looks all very good, but a lot of Indian cricket fans would have been more happy if his average was 5 runs below his current average but he could play a match winning innings in a historical event.
A lot is always talked about Sachin being a minnow basher. If my knowledge of English as well as that of cricket is not too bad then I believe the word minnow in the context of cricket would mean “an unimportant team or a player with little influence or power”. So just to check if those people were really correct and to see if I was actually worshiping a minnow basher I tried to make an analysis. To make such an analysis I thought I will select few really great bowlers of Sachin’s era and try to make out how he was against them or how exactly he performed while those men were bowling for their respective teams. For my analysis I selected the following bowlers (may be I might have left some bowlers inadvertently who deserved to be there but still I feel this is the cream of bowling:
1. Glen Mcgrath 2. Shane Warne 3. Wasim Akram 4. Waqar Younis 5. Alan Donald 6. Shaun Pollock 7. Courtney Walsh 8. Curtley Ambrose 9. Brett Lee 10. Muralitharan 11. Shoaib Akhtar 12. saqlain musthaq
RE:Sachin against best bowlers of his time....
by Raman on Aug 23, 2008 03:24 AM
U cooked this stats up,what about his average in the 3 matches he played against Pak comprising of Saqi Shoaib Waqar and Wasim in 1999 season in India,otehr than that 136 he made he flopped in 5 other innings,he flopped in the C& U Series in AUS against the same bowlers in 2000 and so on. He hasnt scored a 100 in AUS odis until 2007 and hasnt scored a 100 in ENG odis until the last time we played there,does that mean anythign to u?
RE:Sachin against best bowlers of his time....
by Effortless on Aug 23, 2008 02:15 PM
The great Greg Chappel failed miserably against England in 1975 averaging only 12 runs in 5 test series, the great Viv Richards failed miserably against Aus in 1976 in the first 5 tests. The so called great Ricky Ponting still does not have a hundred in India. Brian Lara did not score a hundred against India yet. The great Chappel brothers failed in the World Cup finals in 1975. Does all this make them less great? It is easy to pin point failures but you have to look at overall success rate over a period of time. Sir Garfield Sobers considered to be the greatest cricketer ever to have played the game by all the experts including Sir Donald Bradman struggled in English conditions in 1967. Moreover most of his 26 centuries did not help WI win at all. Same with Lara's 32 centuries, most of them did not help WI win. So does it mean that these are not great cricketers?
RE:Sachin against best bowlers of his time....
by anaida raza on Aug 23, 2008 10:26 AM
2002 NatWest Series - 5th Match Riverside Ground (04/07/2002 - England v India) 0 S R Tendulkar not out 105
RE:Sachin against best bowlers of his time....
by anaida raza on Aug 23, 2008 10:39 AM
Lara yet to score against India... does thet mean anything? And Aussies after 2001
RE:Sachin against best bowlers of his time....
by varun on Aug 23, 2008 11:41 AM
i'll give u the the source. Go and check cricinfo statsguru. For ur kind information i'am talking only about test cricket and not odi's. Not scoring a 100 does'nt mean yov've to have a bad avg. Look the bowlers mentioned above have themselves acknowledged that sachin is thebest they've bowled and u would agree that they know more cricket than u.
RE:Sachin against best bowlers of his time....
by anaida raza on Aug 23, 2008 10:50 AM
Ponting yet to score 100 against WI in WI. What does this mean? Loti...
A lot is always talked about Sachin being a minnow basher. If my knowledge of English as well as that of cricket is not too bad then I believe the word minnow in the context of cricket would mean “an unimportant team or a player with little influence or power”. So just to check if those people were really correct and to see if I was actually worshiping a minnow basher I tried to make an analysis. To make such an analysis I thought I will select few really great bowlers of Sachin’s era and try to make out how he was against them or how exactly he performed while those men were bowling for their respective teams. For my analysis I selected the following bowlers (may be I might have left some bowlers inadvertently who deserved to be there but still I feel this is the cream of bowling:
1. Glen Mcgrath 2. Shane Warne 3. Wasim Akram 4. Waqar Younis 5. Alan Donald 6. Shaun Pollock 7. Courtney Walsh 8. Curtley Ambrose 9. Brett Lee 10. Muralitharan 11. Shoaib Akhtar
I feel this is the best eleven for bowlers during Sachin’s era. Yah some others like Malcolm Marshal, Saqlain, Qadir and Morrison etc. could be selected too but as I felt those were the eleven best, even thought Marshal has to be the deadliest amongst them but by the time Sachin became the Sachin we know Marshal was almost retires so I left him to give due respect to him.
Following is Sachin’s performance(Tests only coz we all know no one can be compared to him in ODIs):
